Forum:CT Archive/"The" in front of ship names - another vote

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The result of the debate was Do not change the MoS at this time: continue allowing the definite article. —Silly Dan _(talk) 14:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I bring this topic up again for the purpose of changing what the Manual of Style says on using "the" in front of ship names. Now, I have an English textbook on proper American English grammar that says otherwise—"the" is not to be used in front of ship names. So, for the case of Han Solo's freighter, it would appear like this:

"Millennium Falcon was the freighter owned by Han Solo," and not this:

"The Millennium Falcon was the freighter owned by Han Solo."

However, there is one case in which "the" can be used in front of ship names, and that is when part of the ship name has been removed. For example:

"The Falcon was owned by Han Solo."

Now, I ask all Wookieepedians to vote to ammend the Manual of Style to reflect proper American English grammar, which we use here. And please don't make your vote based off what sounds right to you, because that's not what proper grammar is about. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 21:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vote

[edit] Do not have "the" in front of ship names

1. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 21:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
2. As funny as I think it looks, gonna go with proper english grammer on this one. - JMAS 21:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
3. I could settle for both, but if the alternative is one or the other, then... VT-16 23:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Have "the" in front of ship names

1. If that's proper American Grammar, then that's just another reason not to use it. American English is bullshit. It's not even English - it's a similair dialect, but dumbed down. You people can't even say "Autumn". You have to settle for "Fall". .... 21:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Hardly any official source omits the definite article (as noted in previous discussions.) When I have time, I'll add links to the previous discussions and possibly to some style guides which are either ambiguous or specifically allow "the" (if I can find them, and I'm fairly confident I will.) —Silly Dan _(talk) 21:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
3. As much as Fourdots comments were bigoted and inaccurate, I'd have to go with user "The". Doesn't sound right without it. --Redemption^Talk 21:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
4. Enochf 21:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
5. I don't even object to the massive work it would take to correct this wiki-wide, just the fact that, as Silly Dan stated, nobody else follows the rule either. I think this is one of those things that won't last but one or two editions more of the MLA publication anyway, because it's different than common usage. Wildyoda 21:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
6. Im with Redemption Mandofett^{Wrist Holoprojector} 22:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
7. I thought 'the' in front of ship names was normal in standard English. KEJ 23:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
8. It's both normal in almost every textbook I've read over here, and used a lot in the Star Wars universe, both IU and OOU. —Jaymach Ral'Tir (talk) 00:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
9. How many times are we going to vote on things like this? —Xwing328^(Talk) 00:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
10. Ill vote only if you promise promise! that this is the last time this thing rears its ugly head. HappyTimeHarry 01:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
11. Down with false prescriptivism. If the vast majority of educated adults and quality printed works don't follow a rule, it's not a rule, especially if our source material also disagrees. jSarek 10:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
12. Go with the majority of IU sources - \\Captain Kwenn// ^{— Ahoy!} 10:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
13. I say don't be nitpicky. Like said earlier, the case varies: the Home One doesn't sound right, but neither does Millennium Falcon (at least to me). ^Jorrel_Fraajic 15:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
14. Oh for....--Valin Kenobi 00:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
15. --Eyrezer 08:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
16. Eggmanland 09:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
17. _{Sith Council} ^{Sith Campaign} 14:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

• Fourdot, we use American English, whether you like it or not. And your criticism of American English and Americans in general won't do you any good. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 21:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Bad Fourdot. (wags finger) I'd be surprised it this turns out to be an American English/Commonwealth English divide, though. —Silly Dan _(talk) 21:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Despite my comments, I'm not even sure if what you are proposing is proper grammar, even in your butchered dialect. And if it is...that's just a disgrace. But why have you taken to grammar all of a sudden, Jack? .... 21:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Fourdot: Because I'm trying to fix what is wrong. Silly Dan: Star Wars books are not English textbooks, as I've said before. Using them as a reason to use "the" in front of ship names is very weak. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 21:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Redemption: What sounds right and what should be are two entirely different things. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 21:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Like images, the articles should be of what sounds best. Thankfully, proper grammar, almost always, sounds best. A ship is not a person. --Redemption^Talk 21:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
        • But as a proper noun, "the" is not to be used in front of the ship name. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 21:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
          • I hate to break it to you but with a little research, you'd know that "The" is proper for ships and is allowed. A special case. Like "the Smiths" or "the Rocky Mountains". --Redemption^Talk 21:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
            • I can't believe this. Everyone is more concerned with what sounds best rather than what is correct. Hell, we should might as well just start using incorrect grammar on more things. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 23:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
              • KEJ: Not in American English. And I don't even know why I bothered to start a vote; I had proof that "the" wasn't to be used in front of ship names. That alone is enough to fix the MoS. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 23:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
                • Everywhere I looked for reference says that ships, surnames, mountain ranges, etc. were the exception to the rule. No indication that there was a difference in Britain. Maybe you should brush up on your grammar skills. --Redemption^Talk 23:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
                  • Watch it. My English book says ship names are no different than a person's name, and that "the" is not to be used in front of either. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 23:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
                    • Watch what? Watch you? Sorry, Jack. You aren't an admin and with that attitude, your not going to be one since we all know of your high ambitions. I looked at several resources. Even some ESL references. And whether you like it or not, America is teaching the little Mexicans that "the" can be used with certain proper nouns. Your book is probably outdated or simply wrong. Or maybe you just aren't looking hard enough for the exception to the rule. Wouldn't hurt to turn the page. --Redemption^Talk 23:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
                      • Enough with your atitude, Redemption. And my book is not out of date; it was made within the last two years. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 00:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
                        • My attitude has no bearing on anything that occurs around here since I have no desire to be more then what I am. And the book is wrong. Everywhere I went for information says that there are exceptions to the rule of using "the" with a proper noun. --Redemption^Talk 00:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
                          • How can a recently-published English book be "wrong"? If anything, it shows that "the" in front of ship names is optional. In addition, I have no desire to be an administrator anymore. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 00:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
• I can't believe this. Everyone is more concerned with what sounds best rather than what is correct.

This is exactly the same as the italics in book titles case. .... 00:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• <sigh> Might as well end it. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 01:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Patience. I'd like to see some specific citations, even if they disagree with what I think is the case, or with how 95% of the population speaks... —Silly Dan _(talk) 01:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
    • "specific citations"? —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 01:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Web links, book titles, quotations, that sort of thing. —Silly Dan _(talk) 01:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
        • I'll see what I can get. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 01:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
          • Being unable to find the book (I have a couple) and unable to find anything online, I can't provide any specific citations at the current time. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 01:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
            • Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. *ahem* Whoa. You started all this without being able to find a single source to cite supporting your claim? Might be time to put up a Jar-Jar surrender pic on this one. Enochf 10:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
            • A quick glance through the 'Star Trek Encyclopedia' shows entries where "the" is used. If this is so wrong, how do you explain so many different authors (not to mention editors) letting it slip by around the English-speaking world, Jack? I think you might need to ask your English Professor about this.Tocneppil 07:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
              • Enochf: As I said, I have a couple of books. In one of them, it says "the" is not to be used in front of ship names. Tocneppil: As proven above, not all books say that "the" isn't to be used in front of ship names. It comes down to what the editors are following. And I've also asked a friend of mine who is an English teacher; she says "the" really isn't supposed to be used, but she could be wrong. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 12:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
                • Saying you "have a couple of books" is not a citation. What are their names? Who are the authors? What's the relevant passage relating to the subject? That's what a "source to cite supporting your claim" means. It's a bad idea to skip the proof and move right on to the indignation. Enochf 12:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
                  • You fail to understand why I said that. I don't know which book it's in, since I have a couple. I'd have to do a lot of reading to find the relevant quote or quotes, and I don't have a lot of time now. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 12:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
                    • No, you fail to understand. If you don't have time to look up a citation or demonstrate proof, why do you waste so much time making the unproven complaint? Good grief, I just provided a citation below that took me three minutes to look up on Google. I've done more proving of your case than you have. The right way to have gone about this is to show patience, wait until you had your hands on these books of yours, then post your complaint, with relevant citations, followed by a vote. Enochf 12:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
                      • You're still not listening. I have these books I speak of, and in one of them there is something on "the" not to be used in front of ship names. Now, I'll repeat this: I have a couple of English books, and I forget which one contains the information on "the" in front of ship names. And, as I said before as well, I don't have enough time to search through every single page of each and every English book I have. Do you understand now? —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 01:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
                        • You are not listening. OK. Read... my... lips. I believe you about the books. I believe you. You have books that say these things. You still have not presented them as proof, you've only told us you have them. Understand the difference? I'm sorry if you "don't have time." If you don't have time to find the proof you need, then you shouldn't be wasting everyone else's with this proposition. Just calm down and look at this from the point of view of someone listening to you who hasn't actually seen these books of yours. Someone who lived their entire life hearing ships referred to as "the" and is very confused by a blanket statement that it's wrong. Be open to the possibility that if you reread these books they might not say what you think. As far as I can tell in my searches, "the" is most definitely optional, but neither is it wrong, except in one case, and that's the United States Navy. Even so, I'd submit there's a difference between U.S. Naval tradition and standard American English. I'm still looking for a rule of thumb on civilian American ships, but no luck. Still, from Shakespeare to Star Trek, we see "the," which makes people skeptical of your claim. Try to understand that skepticism is not a flaw in others; they'll take you more seriously if you bring proof with you. I'm honestly not trying to be troublesome, but I'm not a peacemaker by nature, so it comes out as irritable and testy. Enochf 11:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
                          • Then end this. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 14:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
• OK, I'm ending itafter apparent consensus and two requests from Jack. Please use this thread's talk page or the MoS talk page if any new evidence arises. —Silly Dan _(talk) 14:46, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Previous discussions

For reference, previous discussions can be found at Forum:CT Archive/"the" ship names, Wookieepedia talk:Manual of Style#"The" in front of ship names., and User talk:Jack Nebulax#The Millennium Falcon vs. Millennium Falcon. —Silly Dan _(talk) 00:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Necessary?

Do we even really need a rule about this? It just seems so nitpicky as to not merit having a definitive rule of its own. -- Darth Culator ^{(Talk)(Kills)} 02:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• We have a lot of editors who are nitpicky, let's face it. If we have a rule, it's more likely we can avert edit wars by having it to point at. —Silly Dan _(talk) 05:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • But now we know that "the" is not necessary but not wrong, as proven by Enochf in Citation #1. What we should probably do know is not have a rule; instead, find out how the names are given in the books. I'm pretty sure that other ships besides Home One and Slave 1 are shown without "the" in front of the names. And for instances like Millennium Falcon, go by the lastest source. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 12:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Now, can this be done? —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 12:29, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
      • I don't like the "latest source" bit: as of today, it would mean that a two day old webpage supersedes all previous uses of "the MF", requiring us to change hundreds of pages. Then, when the next book comes out, and "the MF" is used throughout, we'd have to change them back. The problem is that the sources are not going to be 100% consistent, but the majority will probably still use "the". —Silly Dan _(talk) 12:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
        • Then I guess it's time to end this. —Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 20:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Anybody with links or quotes from printed sources, place here.

• Citation #1: Wikipedia: Naming conventions (ship) Relevant passage: "The" is not needed before the name of a ship (but neither is it wrong): Victory was Nelson's flagship at Trafalgar ("The Victory..." is also OK.) Enochf 10:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• Citation #2 Merriam Webster's entry on 'the' (this particular function is listed as use 'h'): "h -- used as a function word before a proper name (as of a ship or a well-known building) <the Mayflower>" (and don't trust Wikipedia :-P )KEJ 11:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• Citation #3 HTML Version of U.S. Navy Manual of Style], supporting the omission of "the." This appears to be limited to U.S. Navy vessels. Presumably this is what started the confusion. No information on how to refer to American civilian ships. Enochf 12:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• Citation #4 This one is a little vague, but does note a Shakespeare example and the tradition of the, as well as some exceptions. Enochf 13:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• Citation #5 Guardian style guide: British, but may provide some insight. "British ships are written HMS Ark Royal, not the HMS Ark Royal." (This is probably because "the Her Majesty's Ship Ark Royal" makes no sense, and may also be the origin of the practice.) "When HMS is dropped, mariners shun the definite article, eg he served in Invincible, though inserting one can avoid ambiguities, eg he served in the Plymouth (the ship not the city)." Says nothing about ships with no known prefix, but it does have a picture of C-3PO for some reason. —Silly Dan _(talk) 13:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• Citation #6 dictionary.com entry for "the" Relevant passages: "2. (used to mark a proper noun, natural phenomenon, ship, building, time, point of the compass, branch of endeavor, or field of study as something well-known or unique): the sun; the Alps; the Queen Elizabeth; the past; the West." "Used before a proper name, as of a monument or ship: the Alamo; the Titanic." Enochf 13:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made elsewhere.