This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus Track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. The result of the debate was Allow alt-cap redirects when the alt-cap appears in an official source. Exiled Jedi(Greetings) 06:53, December 29, 2014 (UTC)
An issue has come up with the creation and maintenance of redirects that point to an identical title that differs only in case (e.g. the currently-deleted Targeting Computer, which sparked this CT, that pointed to Targeting computer). These will henceforth be known as "alt-cap redirects" to save typing.
they are literally written that way, with the alternate capitalization, in official sources
Monobook search is case-sensitive.
I argue that:
the search is only case-sensitive for him because he has, and insists on maintaining, outdated code in his monobook.js file that was developed as a hack to bypass a Wikia "feature" that was discontinued ages ago, and for which the associated gadget in preferences was deleted a long time ago
redirects do not exist to blindly document everything that official sources use, but rather exist solely as search aids, and that the proper place for documenting alt-caps is in the article proper
alt-cap redirects actively foul up Wikia's link suggestion feature, because that feature prefers capitalized titles and will show those exclusively when multiple case versions exist, often to the point of offering only the capitalized redirect and not the actual article title that is in lowercase, and therefore these redirects are clearly harmful
in the presence of an unrebutted argument that alt-cap redirects are harmful, I hold that they should not exist without a strong justification for keeping them, and as both of Cav's arguments have been rebutted by me, no such justification exists, and therefore all such redirects should be deleted and no further such redirects should be created.
And redirects are search aids only. The proper place to document them is in the actual article, not in redirects that actively cause harm. —MJ—Holocomm 00:50, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
I'm voting against this because of the circumstances surrounding its proposal. One, as the proposer mentioned, there is no specific policy recommendation here, making it likely that this argument will happen again in the future. A CT without a policy relies on institutional memory to maintain, which can only last so long. Two, I see no reason why this needs to be a CT instead of the admins figuring this out. A few frustrated messages back and forth hardly suggests an effort to resolve this. Three, and finally, this CT is written with too much of a personal edge to it. A CT in the midst of an argument isn't the best idea. This whole thing is poorly thought out, and is being done in the heat of the moment. I will not support a CT under such circumstances and, as such, I'll default to status quo (despite the hints of a decent argument the proposer has made regarding the impact of redirects on search results). p.s. No need to reply with a comment under this vote. I've said all that I'll be saying. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 01:23, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
I think it is better to allow these redirects as there are times where autosuggest is not working well or where a user types/copy-pastes text with an alternate capitalization before autosuggest provides the suggestions. If an edit is submitted with the alternate capitalization, the article will have a redlink that should not exist. In my opinion, it is preferable to have a few redirects rather than to allow redlinks to slip in that might cause a user to create a duplicate article. While fixing redirects can be annoying, it is much better to prevent redlinks, since our readers can see them, whereas redirects are invisible except to users with CSS modifications or gadgets.--Exiled Jedi(Greetings) 02:20, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree with EJ. A few redirects is certainly preferable to potential redlinks. Supreme Emperor (talk) 02:34, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
Per EJ. Yes, redirects are a pain, and fixing the auto-suggest is also a pain, but it's a pain worth having to avoid redlinks. Targeting Computer, for example, would show up a redlink if it's capitalized incorrectly in an article, instead of pointing someone to the correct article, thus suggesting that Targeting Computer needs to be created (which would, in turn, eventually have to be deleted). With the capitalized redirecting link, Targeting Computer will instead link to the proper article—stopping someone from having to "make" an article that's already made and would end up deleted anyway—with the only downside of a negligible edit to fix the redirecting link. Changing links is something any user can do; deleting duplicate articles is something only an administrator would be able to do (assuming someone even catches the creation of the duplicate article). JorrelFraajic 03:56, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
Jorrel Fraajic makes a good point. New users might misinterpret the Targeting Computer redlink (or any redlink) as a sign that the article needs to be created. They might even go ahead and click on the redlink, which automatically leads them to the "Create New Page," and create it, which would be for nothing.--Richterbelmont10(come in R2!) 05:37, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
Redirects are cheap and pretty much harmless (I've never really understood our obsession with having to fix non-broken redirects in articles... it's really of no value to do so beyond bloating the number of edits). The issue with link suggest is a known bug with a fix from a Volunteer Developer currently pending review (it has nothing to do with capitalisation specifically, but it's incorrectly choosing redirects over real articles). grunny@wookieepedia:~$ 13:21, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
Pretty much per Jorrel. The possibility that redirects with alternative capitalization will be preferred by Wikia's link suggestion system presupposes that link suggestion will work in the first place, which can never be assumed about any Wikia functionality. Alt-cap redirects will always be a necessary evil to prevent the creation of duplicate articles, because I'm not always around and not everyone shares my love for gratuitous deletion. -- Darth Culator(Talk) 16:34, December 23, 2014 (UTC)
Per Brandon and Jorrel. Winterz (talk) 15:24, December 27, 2014 (UTC)
The search function may not be case-sensitive, but the actual page-open function is. If someone attempts to open "Targeting Computer," for example, without that being a redirect, they're taken to a nonexistent page instead of being taken to the actual targeting computer article, which goes along with what Jorrel is saying. That's a problem, and it's quite frankly a heck of a lot more critical than the autolink suggestion function, which really only affects the small percentage of us hardcore editors. The fact that "Targeting Computer" and other terms like it are actually used in official sources is the kicker for me personally, because we're not simply catering to people not knowing how to properly capitalize a certain term, we're catering to what people may literally find and search for while reading a text. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 03:32, December 29, 2014 (UTC)
I purposely do not propose a specific policy addition. The closing admin can feel free to add a note where he or she sees fit, or this decision can simply live as an archived CT thread. —MJ—Holocomm 00:46, December 22, 2014 (UTC)