Forum:CT Archive/Capitalizing "galaxy" - arguments against, and request for revote

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The result of the debate was stop capitalizing "galaxy". -- Darth Culator ^(Talk) 02:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

When this question was brought up for the first time, I thought voting was pointless and the winner would be obvious. It didn't happen that way. Since then I tried to put up with this outcome, and obediently followed the now-established rule, changing "galaxy" to "Galaxy" when it was due, even if I heavily disagreed with it.
Spending more time and effort making these changes, I was gradually getting tired of it, and eventually saw some user comments, disapproving with this rule. They did not voice their opinion so loudly that others could have noticed it, but I was beginning to see that it is not only me who does not approve this.For a time, I was discouraged to bring this up when discussion about merging Anakin Skywalker with Darth Vader were at their boiling point. I thought that bringing up yet another issue that had been decided would not be wise.
For long I have been considering to bring this up again, and let the community revise this rule. As a Wookieepedian who mostly changes language-related stuff, I think my duty is not only following rules, but trying to persuade people to change ones that are questionable or wrong. I would like Wookieepedia to decide if this rule should exist or be abolished.
Here are my arguments against our former decision:

1. Canonicity. I have never seen a canonical source—in English—that ever capitalized the word. I have a couple of novels in English, and none of them ever capitalized the word. My argument here is that novels must follow what is "proper English," and encyclopedias - online or printed - are also such. I don't want to offend some of our contributors here, but I think professional writers like James Luceno or Matthew Stover know twice as much about proper English than most of us combined. As much as non-SW fans should heed our knowledge about certain in-universe issues (SSD size, starfighter capabilities, etc.) we should consider that writers who use their knowledge of written English for a living are expected to know a lot more about the written part of our common language than us. We are, after all, just a group of Star Wars fans, and anyone can become the member of this group regardless of linguistic capabilities.
All online sources I know also spell galaxy in the lower case, except for Wookiee and Wikipedia. I am suspicious that before our deciding the "galaxy/Galaxy" issue for the first time, Wikipedia also wrote "galaxy" in the lower case. Then those who advocated the change did the change at Wikipedia, too, and Wikipedians did not even consider reverting. Wikipedia is not the most reliable source for science fiction, anyway. We all remember removing some fan misconceptions from Wikipedia, ranging from Jedi characters' alleged preferred lightsaber styles to putting "Dark Side" into lower case.
The only other instance that capitalized "galaxy" was the back cover of my Return of the Jedi VHS, and that is the Hungarian, dubbed version that apparently can't be canon as an outsider (non-Lucasfilm staffer).edited it.

2. A nameless proper noun. By capitalizing a noun, we shift it from a common noun to a proper noun. As we know, the Star Wars galaxy has no canonical name. Using a proper noun (may it be as plain as the "Star Wars Galaxy" or a completely random name such as "Kha-na-gatur Galaxy") suggests it does. But this is conjectural at best and fanon at worst. Fanon is the worst case because it is prohibited on Wookieepedia. Conjectural would be confusing, and require a big tag be put to the top of our The Galaxy article. I remember an argument that we write the "Milky Way Galaxy" instead of "Milky Way galaxy" in proper English, and thus we should capitalize galaxy. That is an acceptable point, but "Milky Way Galaxy" is an official name of a celestial entity. The SW galaxy has no official name, even if most fans simply call it as the "Star Wars galaxy."

3. Direct quotes. We have a rule that prohibits changing a written quote from its original form into our preferred form. Our "capitalize 'Human'" rule is no exception of this, and in my experience, it is more effectively followed than our current rule about "galaxy/Galaxy." By following a rule that we made up, we would end up with an article - or only section - with a quotation that writes lower-case "galaxy" and the rest of the article or section that capitalizes it. It does not look so good, and if I didn't know the deal, it would confuse me. See point 4.

4) Confusing and conveys wrong message. For an outsider, who may not know SW any well, this conveys a wrong message that capitalizing galaxy is a custom or even a rule when talking about the Star Wars galaxy. Using my argument in point 1, it is obviously false. I could even imagine a real Star Wars fan being confused by this. New users who come by not knowing this very Wookieepedia-specific rule would not capitalize galaxy and their work will have to be changed, supposing that this is the only "mistake" in their edits.

5) Adjectives and other derived terms would require further words like "galaxywide" or "extragalactic" be capitalized. Neither "a Galaxywide conflict" nor "extra-Galactic" would look very good.

6) A long time ago... if this rule remains, we would have to change the very essential and most commonly recognized SW line from "a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away" to "...a Galaxy far far away." It would be sacriledge. - TopAce ^(Talk) 23:28, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Votes

[edit] Keep former decision: capitalize

1. Capitalize only uses of "the Galaxy" since it refers to the Star Wars galaxy. Other uses of galaxy need not be capitalized. This is largely what the MoS currently says. -Fnlayson 23:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
2. Per Finlayson. -- SFH 00:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
3. Per SFH, and in turn, Fnlayson. Chack Jadson 00:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
4. Per 3 above comments AdmirableAckbar 12:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stop capitalizing

1. First vote - read my arguments above - TopAce ^(Talk) 23:28, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
2. Imperialles 23:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
3. While I am against instruction creep and constant rule changes, for continuing to capitalize "Human" in defiance of what I am well aware is correct English in the real world, and am not sure your last point is correct (maybe it's a galaxy, called "The Galaxy").... I'll support this proposal unless someone can point out a lot of sources which capitalize the word. —Silly Dan _(talk) 23:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
   • I usually don't like instructional creep either. There's already an entry in the Manual of Style for this. So if this passes, it'll be de-creep. Nevermind, it'll take an entry there to state the policy either way. -Fnlayson 23:50, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
4. Ozzel 23:55, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
5. Per SillyDan and the very convincing "A long time ago" argument. There's a reason he's not called Thethreedotelipsis. Gonk ^(Gonk!) 00:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
6. It's fanon. Havac 05:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
7. Wow. I'm guessing you had thought about this. Does Star Wars:Galaxies stay capitalised? Serendipitousus 05:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
   • Of course it does, it's a proper name. We're not advocating the complete disposal of common sense here. Gonk ^(Gonk!) 12:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
8. As a sucker who have adopted the capital G spelling because of what he has read on this site, I vote bust! Didn't innumerable bots, as well as Jack Nebulax, spend valuable hours of their existences changing what we are now about to revert? DarthMRN 07:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
9. Kuralyov 15:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
10. Per canon. - Lord Hydronium 03:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
11. Per everyone in this list. Alternately, should it not be at the Known Galaxy as a conjectural name per Silly Dan below? :-P ^Jorrel _Fraajic 12:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

    I'd just as soon not move it there: it only appears in one source that I can find, and technically only refers to part of the galaxy described in the article (i.e. it excludes the Unknown Regions and Wild Space, which are still part of the same galaxy.) —Silly Dan _(talk) 12:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

12. What's canon is canon. -- Riffsyphon1024 15:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
13. Might as well. Unit 8311 15:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
14. Against unnecessary change, and instruction creep, and argument #5 since we don't capitalize extra-Galactic in the real world with reference to being outside the Milky Way Galaxy, however, totally in support of canon sources and trends, from which we should take our example. Wildyoda 18:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
15. I've been against this since the beginning, and I think there were more than just the one discussion listed below in the past. —Xwing328^(Talk) 23:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
16. I can't remember ever seeing a Star Wars source in which the word "galaxy" is capitalized. EVER. If WE'RE the only ones who do that, when even canon materials don't do it, then it just makes us look like a bunch of jelly-heads. Let's not, hmm? Erik Pflueger 04:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
17. Darth Culator ^(Talk) 04:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
18. Greyman^(Paratus) 16:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

The previous discussion is archived at Forum:SH Archive/Capitalizing "galaxy". —Silly Dan _(talk) 23:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• A comment on our MoS: it is me who wrote it in there, but I did not do that because I agreed with this. It was a rule we had established, and I simply included it in the MoS. - TopAce ^(Talk) 13:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source check

A quick check of my books reveals the following:

• Imperial Sourcebook (2nd ed), Rebel Alliance Sourcebook (2nd ed), The Illustrated Star Wars Universe, The Essential Guide to Alien Species, The Essential Guide to Planets and Moons, The New Essential Chronology, Alien Encounters, Galaxy Guide 9: Fragments from the Rim, Galaxy Guide 8: Scouts, Platt's Starport Guide, Cracken's Rebel Field Guide, Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook, Galaxy Guide 4: Alien Races, Galaxy Guide 12: Aliens — Enemies and Allies, and no doubt most other books, only seem to use "the galaxy" in main body text. I didn't check thoroughly for inconsistencies, and I didn't check every book I had, but I'm basically convinced. ("The Galaxy" is sometimes used in header text like "Duros in the Galaxy" or "The State of the Galaxy," though.)
• The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook uses "The Galaxy" in the text of the Declaration of a New Republic, though the rest of the book doesn't capitalize.
• The end notes in the Dark Empire trade paperback also use "the Galaxy" throughout.
• Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game (2nd ed) uses "the galaxy" almost throughout, although it uses "the Known Galaxy" on page 131 to refer to the mapped and settled parts of the galaxy (in other words, excluding the Unknown Regions.) I think this may be the closest thing there is to an in-universe name for the Star Wars galaxy. 8) —Silly Dan _(talk) 00:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I think the Declaration of a New Republic bit above can easily be explained away as the tendency, in such documents, to over-capitalize. They may have been imitating the Declaration of Independence in that regard. Gonk ^(Gonk!) 00:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
  • As for the "Known Galaxy" thing, go along the same lines as we did for the Nagai Fleet. Just be sure to throw a {{conjecture}} tag on it! :-P ^Jorrel _Fraajic 12:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Just a little note, I am kidding. Or am I? ^Jorrel _Fraajic 12:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
• The opening crawl of The Clone Wars game uses both lower case and capitalized. Vetinari^{(Appointment)} 15:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CT duration

I will close this two weeks from the first vote, on July 7, unless someone else closes it first (likely) or someone comes with some incredibly stunning new evidence (unlikely). -- Darth Culator ^(Talk) 04:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

• Close this out so the changes can be made.. -Fnlayson 15:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.