This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus Track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. The result of the debate was Do not adopt proposed addition to Wookieepedia:IRC#Rules. jSarek 22:50, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
In the CT about the Wikia chat feature, SinisterSamurai made a very good point regarding the user-friendliness of our current IRC channel configuration. For easy reference, I'll quote him here:
"Second, there seems to be a general assumption that just because Wookieepedia Administration & Friends are tech-savy, that any other user with a reasonable issue is also tech-savy. Our own IRC set-up seems designed to be exclusive and non-user-friendly. Unless things have changed in the last month or so, the IRC redirects anyone that hasn't configured the settings of their client into #wookieepedia-social, a channel that is generally untended and ignored by regulars and most of the chan-ops. If you use Wikia's CGI gateway, you are shunted into this side channel with no way into the actual #wookieepedia. After modifying your browser with non-standard plug-ins or downloading and installing a dedicated IRC client, you have to register and identify every time you sign in to access the channel that is actually populated. It is a lot of trouble to go through just to report an issue to a live admin. While it certainly "filters the chaff", the system in place also discourages communication between new and veteran users."
That pretty much explains what the issue is, though I want to add something. What about users who get blocked? The "you are blocked" message tells them that they should appeal their block on IRC, yet I wonder how many users who may have had a legitimate reason to appeal did not do so because they couldn't figure out how to get into the main channel. Probably a very small number, but even one is too many.
8. Per a consensus decision on (insert date here), the permanent or semi-permanent use of either "/mode +r" or "/mode +q $~a" (as explained here) is prohibited in the main #wookieepedia channel. These modes may be applied temporarily on an as-needed basis to deal with cases of abuse that cannot be dealt with by banning the offender(s) or muting the channel, but such uses should be rare and last only as long as absolutely necessary, ideally no more than three hours.
I am not annoyed in the least, Tope. In the end, it wasn't the "anti-troll" measures that kept me from wanting to return to the chat. SinisterSamurai 22:16, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
In general, I think we need to be more welcoming to new users, not set up tests for them to pass before we accept them. New users are the lifeblood of a wiki, especially when old-guard Wookieepedians are leaving or becoming less active. If we make IRC more user-friendly in this way, we might help convince some more newbies to stick around. ~Savage 18:01, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
I agree on everything you say, but I don't believe it would work as the proposal stands alone. So, we have a common goal, just bit of disagreements on means. (: –Tm_T(Talk) 18:03, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
Seems like a good step in the right direction. Menkooroo 00:42, July 25, 2011 (UTC)
No thanks. Firstly, most of the assertions made in Sinister Samurai's comment are simply incorrect. The #wookieepedia-social channel is far from untended and unpopulated. At any given time, there are nearly as many people in there as there are in the main channel, and there are always admins/mods in there, myself included, who are ready and able to field questions from random people who pop in for a one-time visit. The claim that there is "no way into the actual #wookieepedia" is also a grossly mistaken comment. The directions for identifying with the nick server are perpetually linked to in the channel topic, and when someone is having trouble figuring it out, someone, usually Culator, is always there to explain to them what they're doing wrong. It's almost literally a simple 1-2-3 step procedure to gain access. On the plus side, this system actually gives new people a sort of back-alley testing grounds to make sure they understand how to properly insert their e-mail and password into the channel window to register. I can't even tell you how many new people have mistakenly publicly revealed their passwords to #social and then corrected their mistake before proceeding into the main channel, which is much more preferable than having them make these mistakes in the more populated main channel. And I'm not even going to get into the fact that most of our channel mod settings, which indeed spread across all of Wookieepedia's subchannels, are put in place by the channel moderators for very specific, anti-troll security measures. I'm sorry if these minor nuances are annoying to you, Sinister Samurai, but I'm confident the system is working fine. No one who has come onto IRC looking for a live admin to report an issue to has ever gone unanswered on my watch. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:32, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
A weak oppose from me. If you can set up your IRC client and have it work then you're more than likely to be intelligent enough to register/identify your nick. Also, see my suggestion below. NAYAYEN 21:46, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
Per above. Also, when I joined I was far from Internet-savvy—and I still am, when compared to some of our site's best—but instead of sitting back and deciding that getting on IRC was too tough for me, I bloody dove in and figured it out for myself. It's not hard to do (I had no one directing me exactly what to do and didn't know anything about IRC prior to when I joined it here); you just have to not be lazy. Jonjedigrandmaster(Talk) 01:52, July 25, 2011 (UTC)
Per Above. Also, I got an illegitamate you are blocked message, and successfully appealed my block in the senate hall not one the main channel. Bottom line there are other ways to find out how to get on the IRC that are just as easy. GTQ(Problems?) 22:53, July 31, 2011 (UTC)
To GTQ: Your "block message" was not the standard "reply" to unidentified users who try to join the channel. It appeared to you to to a ban accidentally preventing accessing the channel via wikia's gateway at all. Normally users should receive a message like "Cannot join channel (+r) You must be identified" or something like that. 1358(Talk) 15:00, August 3, 2011 (UTC)
I support the proposal, but I wonder if we need to revise irc rules as a whole, and figure and write out what is the purpose of #wookieepedia and -social channels nowadays, I keep having a feeling that things have changed over the years. I need to think of this all bit more to say something more useful and cast my vote. –Tm_T(Talk) 20:33, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
And to comment Tope above: I can easily agree with you on every point, but my experience on way bigger and busyer channels says that there's very rare and specific reasons to block access from non-identified users, even when channels have troll attacks in daily basis. I haven't yet figured out what is the case with our channels, thus the end part in my comment above. (: –Tm_T(Talk) 20:37, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
Aand to continue my mindless babbling on this subject: let's make our instructions more useful for those who don't know yet how to get the channel. About wikias webirc not being able to join the channel: there's currently only one single reason prohibiting this after the registration of the nick and that is wikias webirc has no functional identify (auth, login, whatever) on connection currently. Problem is in the end of Wikia, let's fix it there too (I already reported this, we'll see if wikia cares about it).
Also, just coding this one bit of irc channel maintaining and leaving all the rest as it is now doesn't seem to productive: I would like to see more comprehensive proposal from those who maintains the channel if they like to do some changes, or atleast them being involved on drafting the proposal. I have way too much whirling in my mind about IRC and it's different aspects, cultures etc etc and how these fits to different communities and purposes, making me difficult to find proper sentences, so I think I stop now. (: –Tm_T(Talk) 17:20, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
I support the idea, and would support a review of existing IRC rules, however not the extent to write this change into the rules as of this point. -- Riffsyphon1024 00:16, July 26, 2011 (UTC)
A possible suggestion to alleviate any potential for confusion could be to both add a link to info/guide to registering/identifying your nick to the #wookieepedia-social MOTD and make some mention of that in the actual WP:IRC page. I was genuinely surprised about the latter. NAYAYEN 21:46, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
I do appear to have been mistaken about being unable to identify from the Wikia CGI login. However, while some time has passed since, I did spend a considerable amount of time in IRC. I'd even review the overnight logs the next day. During that period, while Tope had been good about getting to the complaints in Social "on his watch," just as often they'd go unanswered for an hour or more by anyone else in social. There was usually a log-out from an enthusiastic new user from someone looking for help who hadn't realized he or she'd been redirected into a dead channel before a response was ever issued. Seven out of ten times, guaranteed. There several instances where, even when someone got into #wookieepedia, they'd find the channel on +m overnight, without getting voiced. I'd seen a lot of cynical opinions thrown around in the channel itself that things were "better" that way, opinions I'm ashamed to say I agreed with more than once. If you're saying it's not like that now, okay. Who am I to argue? But if you're saying it wasn't like that, then you are, no offense or malice intended, incorrect or lying. Having people logged in to that channel doesn't mean people were paying attention. I'm not trying to upset your world, or anything. I'm just pointing out an observation. SinisterSamurai 22:11, July 23, 2011 (UTC)