This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus Track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record.
The result of the debate was closed early and without prejudice, so that an OOU Layout Guide can be developed and issues regarding copyright and the reproduction of lyrics can be resolved first. jSarek 10:46, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Now that we have several musical theme status articles, and many more existing articles/articles which need to be created, I say it's time we "officialize" a layout guide for such pages. I have been working on such a guide for a while now, and I feel the way I've been doing things has worked extremely well.

The following status articles currently use this layout:

• The Arena (FA)
• General Grievous's theme (GA)
• Shmi's theme (GA)
• The Flag Parade (GA)

Anyway, a LG of some sort is needed, and this as been effective thus far as shown by the above articles. MasterFred^(Whatever) 03:00, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Proposed layoutEdit

User:Master Fredcerique/Musical theme Layout Guide

VotingEdit

Approve of adoptionEdit

1. MasterFred^(Whatever) 03:00, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose adoptionEdit

1. On account of the copyright vios in the "Lyrics" section. I like the idea of a lyrics section, but not the replication of lyrics. See discussion for more information. — Fiolli; 23:18, December 12, 2011 (UTC)
2. There's a large problem with sticking this in the middle of the Layout Guide as just another tan-coloured article-type --- it necessitates the inclusion of every other section in the Layout Guide, including Behind the Scenes, Appearances, and Sources. The best way to avoid this might be to create an entirely new Layout Guide for OOU articles, with absolutely no BTS sections allowed, and with all of the tan-coloured article-types being different kinds of OOU articles. Thoughts, Fred? I want to get the "Published narrative work" Layout Guide proposed soon, so it might be a good idea if we join forces and figure out what's best for OOU articles across the board. Menkooroo 08:30, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
   • I think that would be perfect. Have Wookieepedia:In-Universe Layout Guide and Wookieepedia:Out-of-Universe Layout Guide. That would make things much simpler. MasterFred^(Whatever) 14:58, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
3. Per Menk. Master Jonathan — ^{Jedi Council Chambers} _{Thursday, December 15, 2011, 06:39 UTC}

DiscussionEdit

Question: If a theme is only used twice (say, once in a film and then once in a video game), would the author still be required to subdivide the "Use" section? Hypothetically, the entire section might be comprised of only two sentences in this instance, and subdividing two sentences seems unnecessary. The current wording makes it concrete in terms of whether or not this should be done—don't you feel that should be a bit more discretionary, given the minuscule size of those hypothetical sections? Darth Trayus^{(Trayus Academy)} 04:50, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

• Actually, yes. In practice (ie Shmi's theme), I have refrained from dividing the sections in cases where it would only make several extra-short sections. Thanks for the catch. MasterFred^(Whatever) 04:56, December 12, 2011 (UTC)
  • OK, I've added the last sentence to the use section of the layout. MasterFred^(Whatever) 05:03, December 12, 2011 (UTC)
• I think that it would be useful if you could state that the proposed layout guide only applies to real-world themes, and not to in-universe ones. --Jinzler 10:00, December 12, 2011 (UTC)
  • Better? MasterFred^(Whatever) 15:00, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

LyricsEdit

I am currently working on a lyrics template for the "Lyrics" section. I will post it here when finished. It will have a dropdown "Show" button. MasterFred^(Whatever) 04:54, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

• Isn't listing full lyrics a copyright violation? I fail to see how we could justify that as fair use. Master Jonathan — ^{Jedi Council Chambers} _{Monday, December 12, 2011, 16:46 UTC}
  • I think Master Jonathan has a point here that I hadn't considered myself. I tried to find something regarding this type of copyright law online, and this is about the closest thing that makes any sense to me that probably also relates to our situation here. That link deals with public-domain, non-royalty music, which basically bars the reproduction of lyrics in any form, and I think it's safe to assume that royalty music, which is probably what this Star Wars material is, is no less unlawful. In other words, we shouldn't be listing them without permission. Toprawa and Ralltiir 23:12, December 12, 2011 (UTC)
    • I can tell you beyond a doubt that lyrics reproduction in the manner we would use them cannot fall under any of the fair use claims in any way. If we are citing a line of the lyrics, then it is acceptable; wholesale replication of them even with attribution is not supported by fair use. I know "it is done everywhere," but the law is the law. I will not support a lyrics section unless it is used to discuss aspects of it, such as language, structure, and perhaps a specific word or line that is important (e.g. repeats, has canonical meaning, etc.). — Fiolli; 23:17, December 12, 2011 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) On a tangentially-related subject, I notice that a few pages in Category:Songs, including Ballad of Cham Syndulla, which is a GA, list the full lyrics of in-universe songs. Perhaps those should be removed? Master Jonathan — ^{Jedi Council Chambers} _{Monday, December 12, 2011, 23:26 UTC}
      • I don't know at what point we have too much text there for our legal purposes, but at the very least, yeah, it needs to use the in-line text citation template. Toprawa and Ralltiir 23:29, December 12, 2011 (UTC)
        • All I know about this is that Wikia allows me to post full lyrics on my music wiki. The wiki has also been approved for a spotlight and for help from the content team, and I was encouraged to add lyrics to the pages in the process of getting the stub count down. Now, knowing Wikia, I don't know if they care about copyright laws, so I don't know how much that all means. I'm not an expert in this area. MasterFred^(Whatever) 23:54, December 12, 2011 (UTC)
          • Perhaps, if lyrics can't be added as such, they could be added indirectly into the "Summary" section as follows: "The London Voices comes in chanting the words "blah," "blah," "blah," and "blah." MasterFred^(Whatever) 03:39, December 13, 2011 (UTC)
  • A few things, guys: Back when I was a Wikipedia editor, listing of full lyrics was a strict no-no for in-copyright songs, for the reasons Fiolli lists above. I was one of the hardasses who wiped them from the face of the wiki with no tears in my eyes. However, let's face it, this wiki relies on fair use and LFL good will for its mere existence. We have full images from sources strewn about willy-nilly, and we include plenty of quotes. All that is to say that LFL tolerates us because we bring them attention, but they could probably shut us down tomorrow if they wanted. In short, they probably wouldn't give two squats if we included lyrics in our articles. I'm neutral on the issue, since I don't think fair use is something we should worry about here. ~Savage 01:30, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
    • I think at this point, we need to put this CT on hold and run a separate CT to determine whether we should allow full lyrics before this CT can proceed. Anyone willing to write a proposal and start it? Master Jonathan — ^{Jedi Council Chambers} _{Wednesday, December 14, 2011, 01:36 UTC}
      • I know next to nothing about copyrights, so I doubt I could effectively propose anything. MasterFred^(Whatever) 14:59, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

SuspensionEdit

I think perhaps we should suspend this CT and produce a Layout Guide CT determining whether or not to include IU and OOU sections on the LG page. MasterFred^(Whatever) 14:57, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

• I can close it right now if you want. 1358 ^(Talk) 15:11, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Should we close it or wait until a new CT is passed? MasterFred^(Whatever) 19:22, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
    • I think it would be best to close it and restart it from scratch once both issues (lyrics and a separate OOU LG) have been resolved separately. If you leave this one open, oppose votes because of those issues will still trickle in, and once the issues are resolved, you'd have to notify everybody who's voted of the changes, and the possibility of no consensus would exist if not enough people bother to come back and change their votes. Master Jonathan — ^{Jedi Council Chambers} _{Thursday, December 15, 2011, 22:08 UTC}
      • OK, I'll start an SH thread for the lyrics and work something up for the OOU LG. I guess this can now be closed. MasterFred^(Whatever) 04:07, December 16, 2011 (UTC)