This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus Track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. The result of the debate was holocrons do not count as masters.Green Tentacle(Talk) 22:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
OK< so there has beeen alot of discussion over the whole Revan being Darth Bane's master thing. And there are at least two clear-cut sides to the arguement.
Pretty much leading the "not a chance in hell" side is QuentinGeorge, whilst I and several other suers beleive it she be stated that Revan was a Master of Darth Bane, albeit through the holocron. The main part of the arguement for Revan being a Master of Bane is the line "…virtual Master…"[src] from Path of Destruction. Take note that "Master" is capitalised.
As we are all aware, a holocron holds part of the soul, or "essence"[src] of its gatekeeper, effectively meaning that a part of Revan is inside the holocron. That said, one could say that Bane was taught by Revan himself. We must alos note that in the book, Bane is said to spend weeks learning from the holocron. He learns (from Revan) that the Sith should be ruled by one Dark Lord (although he alters this slightly), and he also learns how to create a Thought Bomb from Revan. Basically, Revan taught Bane everything he is infamous for.
The point of this consensus track however, is the constant edit war going on between users such as KissAss Jedi and myself, and QuentinGeorge (one side adding that Bane was Rveans indirect apprentice, one removing). I have put this up so that once and for all, we have a consensus. So here it is. Jasca DucatoSith Council 21:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Darth Revan (Informal Sith Master, via holocron) -- There you go. Havac 00:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Where in the POTJ Sourcebook does it say that the gatekeeper's essence is stored inside the Holocron? I've been looking through the aforementioned source, the Dark Side Sourcebook, the Dark Empire liner notes, both old and new versions of the EGtWT and haven't found anything that suggests that. Page numbers? Muuuuuurgh 04:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Having read the holocron sources for when I was going to do the article, it doesn't. All it says is that their thought patterns were copied. In effect it's like talking to them, but it isn't actually; it's just a computer program that acts like them. As for "virtual Master", do people keep forgetting the first word? "Virtual" specifically means that he wasn't really a Master. - Lord Hydronium 04:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Oooh, tricky question. Had it been 'teacher', the matter seems clear-cut. But 'Sith Master' takes more than simply teaching someone Force skills, philosophy and saber technique, or both Vader and Dooku had a lot of Sith Apprentices, which they didn't. It is an official title, with attached pomp and ceremony, which Bane did not have in relation to Revan. DarthMRN 11:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, Lord Hydronium. In this case, the term "virtual" is being used in a way that it is describing the fact that it is an image of Darth Revan. And Havoc, what you put is what I want, just a little note in the infobox. Jasca DucatoSith Council 07:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
No, I do not think that you could consider Darth Revan as a "Master" of Darth Bane. The "Master" of a particular Jedi is regarded as the one who took that Jedi under their tutelage as a Padawan learner, or if that didn't apply, one who gave that Jedi direct training in the Force (or both). Example: Qui-Gon Jinn was Obi-Wan Kenobi's Master. Yoda and Obi-Wan were both Luke Skywalker's Masters. However, Darth Andeduu was NOT Count Dooku's Master, simply because he obtained a Holocron of his. There was no personal Master/learner relationship in these sorts of situations, so I don't think referring to them as Jedi X's "Master" is appropriate.
The Sith as an Order worked very differently during the time of Darth Bane. Under the Brotherhood of Darkness, equality was stressed just as much as competition amongst the apprentices, which was very contradictory. There was very little Master/learner relationship on a personal level. They were also in the process of breeding entire armies to wage war against the Jedi, so there was not as much time for the weening of individual learners. It also placed much of the burden on the Apprentices themselves to find the "middle ground", that is, being able to find the appropriate times to come together against their common enemy the Jedi, and to stab each other in the back and attempt to grab power. I believe that Bane was the exception to this, as he did recieve private training from Kas'Im. The entire timeline of Path of Destruction was only what, about a year? Darth Bane was an extremely gifted individual and went from being a Miner to the most powerful Sith Lord of his time in a matter of months.
THAT BEING SAID, while I think Darth Bane was very much a Master of himself, his Masters would probably be Qordis, the head of the Academy during his time there, and Kas'Im, who instructed him in lightsaber Combat. **SPOILER** In Path of Destruction, there is a scene where Kas'Im has concluded that there was little more Bane could learn from him, and passes down his former Master's lightsaber, whom he killed and took the blade as his own. That is the only thing I have read on Bane that hints at a Master/Apprentice relationship, so Kas'Im would definitely be one who could be considered as one of Bane's "Masters". He did recieve a fair amount of training from Qordis, but for most of the book he shows distain and a high amount of disrespect for him as a Sith. The same could also be said about Githany, although he was on an entirely different level than she was to be blunt. —Unsigned comment byNameless707 (talk • contribs).