This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Knowledge Bank page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. jSarek 08:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
If the Chosen One was to destroy the Sith then why are there still sith in the Legacy era. have I understood the prophecy? Anzati02 20:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
You are correct. The reason that there are Sith in the Legacy Era is because Lumyia, a dark jedi under Vader's tutelage, named herself a Sith after Anakin fulfilled the prophecy. If you think about it, Lumiya was never really a Sith. But for the sake of argument, the Force was brought into balance before a new sith order arose. Anyway, Lumiya took Jacen Solo as her apprentice, and it continued up to Darth Krayt and his apprentices. However, I myself have never really understood the prophecy. If the Chosen One was supposed to bring balance to the Force, shouldn't that mean that their should be an equal amount of Jedi and Sith, light and dark perfectly balanced?Darth Grievous 17:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
AFAIK, there are no official interpretation of what 'Balance to the Force' means. GL seems to say that the destruction of Palpatine and Vader brings balance, but that stuff is dubious IMO. DarthMRN 00:17, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
If you read the Light side of the force article you will get how the term balance is more like equilibium or perfection. Lucas said himself that the force cannot be split into light side and dark side, and that dark side is a perversion of the force created by said dark user, and that perversion 'unbalances' the force. If you take my meaning Tutos Lumenarious 01:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
But Anakin did NOT destroy the sith. Palpatine was killed by, was it Luke, Leia, or baby Anakin?Anzati02 00:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Ummm... he kinda did. He killed Palpatine to save his Luke, redeeming him. By destroying Palpatine, he also destroyed the Sith as well (at least, in the Galactic Civil War...) --FireV 00:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The resurrections of Palpatine were, in my opinion, publicity stunts to get people to read the Dark Empire books. Seriously, this whole inhabiting clone after clone seems a little far-fetched. At any rate, I have to go with DarthMRN's interpretation on this one, and say that there really isn't a specific definition of what "balance of the force" is, so unless GL gives out a definition any time soon, we have to continue speculating. By the way, in answer to Anzati02's question, Han Solo shot and killed the ailing Palpatine, and Empatajayos Brand bound his dying essence to Palpatine's (basically) to prevent him from inhabiting another clone or innocent person. Hope that helps you all. Hobbes15(Tiger Headquarters) 00:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Anakin destroyed them for a time. There were no Sith around for several minutes after Palpatine's death ;). Or, if you want the serious explanation, as usual GL didn't bother to check the EU before he added his prequel crap, and so his storylines don't make any sense in the broader context. Simple as that. Evir Daal 14:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The Prequel series is not crap! The only reason GL made it was to explain the origonal series. A.K.A. Darth Vader and the Empire's rise to power. Not to mention so of the coolest battle scenes ever. User:Fox2251
Please stay on topic. This thread is not about personal favorites. - Sikon 17:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Luke and Anakin brought the balance, but there are rumers of one Vader's apprentices, Darth GaligaNathan Solo
If Plagueis created Anakin like the rumours suggest then perhaps this would put the force out of balace and only when Anakin became a Sith and redeemed himself by dying did the force fall back into balance. As Yoda said the prophecy could have been misread as Sith applies to both plural and singular names. Its only a theory though Snap-hiss
The line of succession was broken. Lumiya's and Darth Krayt's "Sith" cannot be Sith at all since they are not in the same unbroken line of succession. As for why Lumiya wouldn't be a Sith if she were Vader's apprentice, it's the same deal with Asaaj Ventress, Quinlin Vos, Mara Jade, the "secret apprentice" from The Force Unleashed, and all of those other students who learned under Sidious, Tyranus and Vader: while they may have received training - and indeed, as in the case of Lumiya, even given much Sith knowledge - they were never ordained as Sith. It takes a Dark Lord to ordain a new Sith, as we see Palpatine ordain Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. It isn't just the knowledge imparted; that's maybe half of it: it's the ordination. Lumiya and the Sith after her were never ordained by a Sith Lord of the original lineage, but were rather self-proclaimed. The line was severed, and so they could not have possibly come from the true line of Sith Lords.
That's a good assumption, but Jacen Solo clearly becomes a Sith Lord like his grandfather, Anakin Skywalker. so perhaps Lumiya consulted knowledge from ancient Sith holocrons, and when she believed she was strong enough, proclaimed herself Dark Lady of the Sith, also, remember that Lumiya and Vergere were working together to corrupt Jacen, and that Lumiya does say that Vergere was a Sith apprentice of Sidious. How much of what Lumiya is saying is true is unknown, but it seems likely, considering that Vergere contradicts everything George Lucas says that the Force is, however, Sidious lied through his teeth to corrupt Anakin.--Jedi Kasra 23:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Lumiya was never ordained by a Sith Lord, and neither was Vergere. Vergere would never have had time to have been Sidious' Sith apprentice if you look at the timeline; and since Sidious believed very strongly in the Rule of Two, I doubt he would have broken it. The most Vergere could have ever been to him was exactly what Lumiya was to Vader: a Dark Jedi apprentice given much Sith training and knowledge, but never ordained an actual Sith. They could have read all the holocrons they wanted and proclaimed themselves Sith as much as they wanted, but without an ordination from a true Dark Lord of the Sith of the ancient, unbroken line stemming from the ancient exiled Dark Jedi and Sith species combined into one, they could never be Sith. Jacen may have been ordained by Lumiya in a similar fashion as his grandfather was years previous, but Lumiya herself never received such an ordination and thus was not adopting Jacen into anything, no matter what she believed. Whether they wanted to admit it or not, they were starting a new line of Sith who were entirely unconnected to the true line, and thus not true Sith. (Now I know that someone will inevitably bring up the fact that that line had seemingly been broken many times in Sith history. I can explain away that one as well, but I'll save it for another time.)
I concur. How do you explain away that the Sith has died and then been resurrected several times, and still deny Lumiya the legitimacy required to use her Sith knowledge to restart the Order in absence of a old style Sith master? It is just a name, after all. Who decides legitimacy if all old Sith are dead? Even Vader & Palpatine could trace their roots back to Kaan's Sith order, which was IIRC started by a Jedi, no less, after a hiatus of ca. 2000 years! DarthMRN 08:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Marka Ragnos, I'll sure you'll agree, was a member of the Old Sith Empire, and was a Dark Lord. His spirit ordained Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma. They were ordained by a true Sith Lord, so they became part of the same Sith Order as the old Empire was a part of. (Plus, Naga Sadow ordained Freedon Nadd, for what it's worth, but that line never really went anywhere.) These Sith, probably from Kun's line, were still in existence and scattered at the time of Revan. He found and unified these Sith. They must have had a Dark Lord as well, for only a Dark Lord could have ordained Revan and Malak into the Sith. This Dark Lord was either very benign and gave up the throne to Revan, convinced of his leadership skills, or Revan simply slew him and took it from him. This line survived until the Sith Triumvirate, of which at least one Sith known as the "Unknown Darth" survived and continued the lineage until the time of Darth Ruin. This one Sith, being the only one left, would naturally have been the Dark Lord, and passed on that title until Ruin came along. Ruin unified all of the scattered Sith organizations and would have received his ordination from this one Revanite line, and, like Revan, was either given the mantle of Dark Lord or took it from the existing one. And, as you know, this line continued until Bane, and then from Bane until Plagueis, Sidious, Maul, Tyranus and Vader, and which point it was finally cut off completely. This line began with the intermingling of Dark Jedi and Sith after the Hundred Year Darkness. It's not just a name: it is a legacy. A legacy that tipped the balance of the Force in the dark side's favor and had to be destroyed. So you see, the line was never broken. This is all based on facts provided by various media, all of which Wookieepedia mentions.
There are two unsubstantiated assumptions which breaks the argument of a single unbroken line. 1) How Revan became Sith has yet to be revealed. AFAIK there is nothing in canon to indicate he found scattered Sith and was ordained by them. All that is known is that he took the mantle of Dark Lord. 2) The link between the Unknown Darth and Darth Ruin is not verified anywhere I know of. If you can provide proof to the contrary, feel free to edit the Darth Ruin article. But if the article is any indication, he too took up the mantle on his own accord. Not saying you can't be right, especially with these True Sith lurking about, but going purely by canon, Lumiya is no worse than Revan or Ruin. At least we know she studied under a genuine Dark Lord. DarthMRN 22:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
It is mentioned in Shadows and Light that Revan came upon the remaining Sith, who were few, and that much is mentioned here on Wookieepedia. I know I've seen it, possibly in Revan's article, but I can't be sure. And of course my assumption that there were Dark Lords how ordained Revan and Ruin is just that: an assumption, but it fits well - unless any Sith, and not just the Dark Lord, can ordain.
I read the Revan article just after posting to be sure, and there was no mention of him meeting any Sith on the Trayus Academy. If you can prove that he did, update the article accordingly please. DarthMRN 01:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm 100% sure I saw it here somewhere. But in any case, it's mentioned in Shadows and Light.
Perhaps Revan was ordained by an ancient Dark Lord, much like Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma were ordained the Dark Lords of the Sith, Kun the master and Qel-Droma the apprentice, were ordained by Freedon Nadd, the last known Dark Lord before Kun. And 'Path of Destruction' implies that he understood and practiced the Rule of Two 2,959 years before Darth Bane learned from Revan's Sith Holocron.--Jedi Kasra 03:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Except that we're, once again, just speculating. It's not like there's talk of a third addition to the KOTOR series or anything that may or may not answer a few of these questions. --School of Thrawn 101 04:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
has it actually been comfirmed that Anakin was the chosen one. I mean, theoritically, and i know this is pushing it a bit, but waht if Revan was the chosen one, and defeated the real sith, and bane,plaguies,sidious etc... aren't real sith. Cade could even be the chosen one, and maybe he'll defeat Krayt and co. AdmirableAckbar 15:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
George Lucas said himself in Rolling Stone, I believe, that Anakin WAS AND IS the Chosen One, not Luke or anybody else, it was Anakin. Just accept it.--Jedi Kasra 19:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
the prophesy could be wrong as yoda suggest in episode 3126.96.36.199 19:53, 9 June 2007 (UTC)Camar Skywalker
Yes, but George Lucas confirmed it! End of story.
Ah-ha! I've found the information I was referring to regarding there being Sith remaining on Korriban from Exar Kun's order, and Revan conquering them. It's from the "Sith Empire (Jedi Civil War)" article:
The organization of Darth Revan's Sith Empire was surprisingly similar to that of Darth Sidious' Galactic Empire. Following the dissolution of the ancient Old Sith Empire circa 5,000 BBY, the former capital world of Ziost fell by the wayside, and was nearly forgotten. After the defeat of Exar Kun in 3,996 BBY, a number of his former Sith disciples fled to the far reaches of the galaxy, including the territory of the former Sith Empire. During the intervening three-and-a-half decades, the mausoleum planet Korriban was occupied by those who ultimately became the true heirs-apparent to Kun's mantle; it was during a trip there following the Mandalorian Wars that Revan encountered the most recent Dark Lords of the Sith (an unknown number) and defeated them — thereby claiming the title as his own. Under the ex-Jedi, Korriban thus became the new capital of the Sith Empire, and began to attract ever-growing numbers of students and acolytes to the burgeoning Sith Academy there. The planet's status as Ziost's successor was complete.
I knew I wasn't imagining it!
man,you have to sign your comm 16:43, 10 June 2007 Camar skywalker 21:55, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I know that it is indeed in that article, but where is a source form that? And, Dude, please sign your name.--Jedi Kasra 20:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, it's from Shadows and Light.188.8.131.52 03:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh, 'Shadows and Light' says that Revan visited the Dark Lords of Korriban and defeated them? Where is the source for that? In the Sith Empire of the Jedi Civil War article there are two conflicting accounts, one says that Revan defeated the Dark Lords on Korriban and took the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, the other says he took the title of Darth Revan on the decks of the Star Forge. I find the theory that he became the Dark Lord of the Sith when he found the Star Forge more likely and that he just became a Dark Jedi when he supposedly crashed on Malachor V.--Jedi Kasra 18:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Revan declared himseld the Dark Lord of the Sith aboard the Star Forge. It does not say that he became a Sith there. The status of Sith was bestowed via ordination and must be kept unbroken, but it does not seem to be the case with the title of Dark Lord. It's a status that seemingly any Sith can take, so long as there is an existing Dark Lord already in power. The title is obtained various ways in the EU, some of those being election (as was the case with Naga Sadow), by self-declaration when there is no Dark Lord (which undoubtedly led to fighting between various individuals desiring the status at the same time), or by forcibly taking it from an existing Dark Lord by defeating him, which was the usual practice. The title of Dark Lord was something that was usually taken, but the title of Sith had to be bestowed. With these facts, we can postulate that Revan turned to the dark side on Malachor V, became a Sith on Korriban by defeating the remaining Sith there and forcing them to ordain him into the Sith, and then declared himself Dark Lord on the bridge of the Star Forge.184.108.40.206 00:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Can you substantiate that you need to be ordained by a Sith to become one? As in the case of Darth Ruin, there was no one to ordain him anything. He just did it. Same with Lumiya. AFAIK she was never ordained Sith by anyone. DarthMRN 00:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I've already answered all of those questions, but instead of making your rummage through this entire discussion for those incites, I will summarize what I've already said briefly: Ruin is said to have united all of the Sith groups, and we know of the "unknown Darth" who was a survivor of Revan's order. This Sith's line of succession was likely integrated into Ruin's New Sith Empire and, so as to become a real Sith, Ruin made them ordain him. (I am postulating here, but it is the only possibility to confirm my unbroken line of succession theory.) Now a Sith, and being the strongest leader, he declared himself Dark Lord unopposed. As for Lumiya, and all of the "Sith" after her: not true Sith. It's as simple as that. The line was broken with Sidious and Vader, which was originally the entire point of the way I took this discussion. You see, that's what the Chosen One did: he destroyed the Sith by breaking the chain. The Sith could not come back. And "Sith" surfacing after that would have been Sith in name only, but not in the eyes of the Force. This would include Lumiya (even though she received lots of Sith teaching and training from Darth Vader, yet he never ordained her), Jacen, Darth Krayt, et al. 220.127.116.11 01:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but Bastila does say that Revan and Malak visited Korriban when they were known as Jedi at least once, so that throws the theory of him becoming Sith on Korriban right out the window. And the computer on Kashyyyk tells the reformed Revan that it was last accessed by Revan five years ago, though not in those exact words, so since the game was set in 3,956 B.B.Y., Revan would have programmed the computer in 3,961 B.B.Y., a year before the Battle of Malachor V. So Revan and Malak probably heard of the Star Forge at some unknown time BEFORE 3,961 B.B.Y., because the Duros who tries to convince Revan to negotiate with the Sand People outside of the Czerka Offices says that a Jedi came there 5 years before and that he thought that the conforntation between the Jedi and the Sand People ended in bloodshed. And like I said before, 5 years before 3,956 B.B.Y. was 3,961 B.B.Y. This is all speculation of course, but if you listen closely to the dialogue that is what it says.--Jedi Kasra 02:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
"Yes, but Bastila does say that Revan and Malak visited Korriban when they were known as Jedi at least once, so that throws the theory of him becoming Sith on Korriban right out the window." Er, how? They went at least once, which is not the same as only once for certain. The first time may have been in their quest for the star maps, and another time to become Sith. Also, if Revan and Malak fell to the dark side on Malachor V, and their trekking through the worlds to find star maps took place a year before that, then that means that they were light-siders during that entire quest - albeit slipping drastically - thus proving Vrook's theory that they had already fallen wrong. This poses no problem to my theory, as they simply would have become Sith after that. But, do we know for certain that it was truly on Malachor that Revan fell to the dark side, and that it isn't just an assumption made by the author of that Wiki page? The first game seems to very strongly imply that Revan and Malak went searching for the Star Forge to gain the power to destroy the Republic, which strongly says to me that they were as good as fallen. It doesn't matter, however, as my theory is compatible both ways, and the events play out the same: Revan and Malak go searching for star maps, they travel to Korriban (for the first time) and find one there, they find the others, they now know exactly where the Star Forge is, they stumble upon Malachor somewhere along the journey, they go back to Korriban to become Sith, then they go to the Star Forge, where Revan declares himself the Dark Lord of the Sith. 18.104.22.168 02:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Now, let me take this whole thing back a moment: let's suppose that I am wrong about the line of the Sith remaining unbroken until Palpatine. How, then, do you explain the prophecy of the Chosen One - the official interpretation (according to George Lucas) being that Anakin brought balance to the Force by destroying the Sith - when the Sith have seemingly been destroyed numerous times in the past, and return again in the future? What makes this particular destruction so special? I'd say we have a real continuity problem there, don't we? Just thought I'd bring it full-circle back to the original topic of this discussion. 22.214.171.124 02:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
It's George Lucas' series. He is telling one story out of many of his universe. But he did say that Anakin is the Chosen One, unless he says there can be many and were many "Chosen Ones" from both the past and in the future, but he didn't, so until he does. Anakin will remain the undisputed "Chosen One".--Jedi Kasra 03:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not disputing Anakin's status as the Chosen One. In fact, my theory reinforces it. I'm just trying to reconcile inconsistencies, because otherwise we're stuck with the explanation of "Because George Lucas said so." 126.96.36.199 03:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Consider me an adherent, then. I like the theory, if only because it makes the "Chosen One will destroy the Sith" thingy a lot more coherent. Chee likes things that fit togheter, he might just adopt sometehing like this theory. DarthMRN 14:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Anakin did not become Sith until he was named Darth Vader by Sidious, and Exar Kun did not become Sith until Marka Ragnos proclaimed him the new Dark Lord. So Revan wouldn't need to consider himself Sith and probably did not until he was absolutely sure the Star Forge was what he was looking for, plus he probably did not want to admit that he had fallen, then when he found the Star Forge, he realized that there was trult no going back, then he proclaimed himself the new Dark Lord. Just because a Jedi or Dark Jedi kills a Sith dose not make him/her "Sith". And I apologize for not signing my comment above, the one that starts with "It's George Lucas' series." I have since signed my name on it.--Jedi Kasra 03:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
The first part of your statement regarding Vader and Kun only reinforces my theory. And I never said you needed to kill a Sith to become one. Doing so only destroyes your chance at becoming a Sith, especially if it's during the time of the Rule of Two, as you'd destroy the one person who could make you a Sith. No, becoming a Sith, like becoming a Jedi, is done at the hands of an existing Sith through ordination, as we see Palpatine ordain Vader in Revenge of the Sith, and Ragnos ordain Kun and Qel-Droma in Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith. It is the status of Dark Lord that is taken by force, and doen't necessarily need to be an unbroken line, since there was no Dark Lord for a brief time between Ragnos' passing and the feud between Sadow and Kresh; and there was likely no Dark Lord between Kun and Revan (though we know there were still Sith). But as for the Sith themselves, they needed to be of an unbroken line of succession, which is the only possible explination as to why their destruction at the hands of a redeemed Anakin Skywalker was so significant. I agree with you that Revan would not have become a Sith until he was certain that the Star Forge was what he wanted, and it was probably after that decision that the conquered the remaining Sith on Korriban and forced them to ordain him into the Sith Order, before setting out for the Star Forge; though it is likely that he had already found all of the star maps and knew exactly where the Forge was located, but had not yet set out for it. He proclaimed himself Dark Lord aboard the Star Forge.(As an aside, taking a note from one of KOTOR's loading scenes that Revan, being stronger, became the master, while Malak "begrudgingly accepted the role of apprentice." I envision Revan proclaiming himself the Dark Lord of the Sith on the Star Forge's bridge, while Malak, enraged, says something to the effect of, "No, I am the Dark Lord of the Sith!" and they duel one another in the presence of their followers for the throne, the skirmish ending in Revan mortally wounding Malak by slashing at his head, knocking off his jaw. There's no proof that this happened, but I just thought it'd be cool if it happened that way.) 188.8.131.52 21:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Amen to that.--Jedi Kasra 22:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Jedi Kasra what George Lucas says goes and I also like the idea of Revan wounding Malak that way.--User:The K.O. King16 July 2007
I asked a magic 8-ball and here is its answer:
From what is known of the Force - and also galactic history - it is reasonable to assume that whoever or whatever the Chosen One was, he/she/it was of relatively little importance to the lives of the population at large. If "balance" was to even off the ratio of Sith to Jedi, then it was worthless because that lasted only a decade. If "balance" was to heal some natural aspect of the Force, then that too was of no value to commoners because a vast majority had almost no experience of the Force. If "balance" was to destroy the Sith, then that was a waste of time because they were not. Seeing as post-Endor history is just as disasterous, corrupt, and evil as pre-Endor history, whatever the Chosen One did seemingly had no impact worth the effort. Karohalva the Infallible Pumpkin
Here is a fourth theory which a buddy of mine came up with, and which I find intriguing: The Chosen One eradicated both Jedi and Sith, ultimately leaving an adult and independent Luke with teachings from both organizations, which he used to form his own more liberal, darkside-friendly and hands-on NJO. DarthMRN 06:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)