This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Knowledge Bank page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. Advanced Jedi Training Droid 6(Talk to my master) 03:44, June 16, 2014 (UTC)
According to the wiki, the moon of Endor is 4,900 km in diameter, and it is commonly accepted that the second Death Star is over 900 km in diameter. However, this picture shows Endor to be far larger than what is supposed to be five or six times the diameter of the Death Star II. Is there any explanation for this? --Ixfd64 (talk) 20:29, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
At the risk of sounding facetious, the picture is fake. As in it's in a feature film and made to look a certain way for aesthetic reasons. Of course visually, the size we see should be taken as canon, coming straight from a still of the feature, but it's not confirmed in writing like the 900km source. I put it in the same vein as Darth Vader getting off the operating table in his suit and cybernetics for the first time ...wearing his cape. You know it makes no sense, but he had to look a certain way, so.. You'll also notice the rebel ships on the right are sunlit and cast shadow on the wrong side. Just incorrect... Having said that, that Death Star definitely looks no bigger than DS 1 in that shot and for about 25 years, I thought it was the same size. In my mind it should be just that. Ghostly Menace (talk) 12:09, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
What Ghostly Menace said. It's artistic license, and yes, that can apply to live-action movies. —MJ—Jedi Council Chambers 04:49, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
Gentlemen! You are hereby ordered, and yes I mean ordered by a non-accounter, to stay off of this wiki if you are going to circulate that kind of talk. And no,
I don't want to be harsh and mean. There is enough of that on this wiki as there is. I have ended up on the wrong end of it, trust me. But to make these kind of assertions crosses a line, so forgive me for any impoliteness.
I cannot tell you how many times sources, reference guides and fact books single themselves out as extra-galactic, out-of-universe textbooks. The story of Star Wars, its history, its facts, were delivered first, and still foremost, through story, through the text, visuals, and gameplay of accounts. The discrepancies between sources is abominable, and between sources and the story accounts there is enough to blow up Alderaan.
And this why I know not to personally accept all that the sourcebooks say, because most are outdated quickly and some have contradicted the stories and each other. However, since this is Wookieepedia, I will caution you that the local writers tend to think the movies as G-canon. Also known as, the highest grade of fact in the Star Wars universe. And you are supposed to answer with canon.
Since I just disrespected so many guides just now, though, you know I am not in line with this wiki myself. Yet the movies must remain supreme or there goes Star Wars and are standard for every guide and Expanded Universe story.
Honestly, Vader could have had his cape attached through multiple methods that exist only in the galaxy of our admiration. Not to mention the fact Vader's reconstruction was shown in phases. Those source books you quote, one makes it clear there is some time it takes to rebuild him, and this includes removing him from the chair. How else did they get the suit on!
Artistic license? Gentlemen, do not spread falsities to any fan. For the above inquiry, I suggest you consider which course you will take when it comes to personally understand the stories of Star Wars. Now that is the polite, "tolerant" answer with which we all get along. But I'll just tell you that the books are wrong, easily confirmed officially in all likelihood, and Endor is probably six times its given size like you say.
Admins! If you drop by here, or anyone else, don't lecture with your fact books. You know where your own policy stands here. And these two have given a woeful answer on this Forum. But perhaps one should make sure they aren't ostracized by the community, or offended this aggression.
Gentlemen, it is not my intention to chase you off or yell through the type. It isn't even my job to keep things straight on this wiki, because I already can't conform to the shaky, harmful system of rules and competitive unison. I just feel as if your answers were so far from what this datasource stands for and what is true about Star Wars. Please accept this corrective declaration without ill will towards the site and this user. Thank you. May the Force be with you all.22.214.171.124 15:16, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
Now that I've thought about this, there's another explanation. The original data for the Death Stars, back when the OT was actually made, was that the first one was 120 km in diameter and the second was 160 km. That would be more in line with the size difference we see in the film, in that scene. However, later sources have retconned that to 160 km for the first one and 900 km for the second one. That makes no sense given the size difference in that scene, but neither did the first measurement make much sense in the shot of the Death Star exploding as seen from the moon's surface, which the newer figure nicely corrects. So each one makes sense in one scene and not in the other; as they say, "six of one, half a dozen of the other". So it really doesn't matter which one you personally go with; there's going to be an inconsistency either way.
As for the G-canon debate, yes, G-canon is usually superior to all other forms of canon, but in reality the canon levels are only guidelines. Each and every conflict is handled on a case-by-case basis, and it is possible for a lower level source to override a higher one, particularly if the lower source is explicitly correcting something considered to be an error in the higher one. —MJ—Jedi Council Chambers 05:07, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
Master, I should call you out for your level of seniority to defend the Film canon. If old sources conflict with new sources, then there is my point exactly. Reference guides usually conflict. Even stories conflict. Thus we choose the movies which came first and founded everything and showed everything that will ever be real to the Star Wars universe as the highest continuity. No error is on the part of the films, Master Jedi. But they are very much on the part of many references, which is why I trust the movies, the books, comics, and video games, and then the source material that makes sense. And the movies factually beat the other stories still in their arena. I am well pleased to see you are not offended by my flying off the handle with the above words. I am hoping the other writer will also not be upset by the harshness in the tone.
And no, canon levels aren't guidelines, they are stupid. I agree with you there. But the movies take precedent, we answer with canon here, and you know we must be honest with ourselves. I do know the EU is inseparable from the films, there is only canon and non-canon, and therefore the canon levels are stupid. But the movies are the glimpses we are given into the galaxy long ago and far, far away.126.96.36.199 05:29, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
You missed my point: that canon levels are not the be-all and end-all, and whichever size you choose (160 km or 900 km) will create problems in one movie scene but not the other. Also, you said this: "Thus we choose the movies which came first" (emphasis added). Just because a newer source contradicts an older source does not automatically mean that the newer source is wrong. On the contrary, the newer source will almost always be declared the canon source, replacing the older information from the other source (what is known as a retcon, or retroactive continuity). Information changes like this all the time. Yes, the movies are generally held above everything else, but they are neither untouchable by retcons nor infallible. If something in the movie is deemed to be an error, it can and will be changed, most likely by a C-canon source. —MJ—Council Chambers 06:15, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
Master Jonathan...This is a Q&A forum which is supposed to have the A part with an A+. The plus to the answers we give is verification. On this end of Wookieepedia the name of the game is canon and fact. And now you have missed the point. The Q portion was on the size of the second Death Star relative to Endor. You have moved to challenging the operation of canon levels (which I too disagree with, but in a different way) and the CURRENT canon.
To this day the movies are still the overriding canon for the history and world of Star Wars. I ain't no Wookieepedian. I personally am hesitant to always trust this site becuz I know what it is capable of, and its limits. Normally I am a resister to the rules, never a patrolman. But your assessment puts you one far too many from the galaxy far, far away.
There is something called story, Master Jedi. It is the thing which birthed this universe we argue over, the thing that first gave us the satisfaction of an adventure through star systems in less than twelve parsecs.
I believe in the importance of details in story. One less fact throws the creation off-kilter. Therefore, I do not believe in blowing you off as a geek like me. I believe in continuity, however, because without it there is no suspension of belief, not disbelief, not an illusion, an immersion. Ability to retcon does not grant the prerogative to justly retcon. No right is given to destroy a good fact or good story that has been pretty consistent and stable for years in favor of new...What are they called?...MISTAKES.
Your arguments are against the foundational cornerstone of Star Wars and all accepted canon and the real history of the galaxy in the defense of new errors. Do you not see the error in that. Tear down what we knew to be true for the sake of an accident or lie? The movies are much outdated, yes, old fashioned enough to be discarded as unrealistic? Not these films. Maybe others. Maybe the inconsistent accounts found in Jedi-vs.-Sith and Bane of the Sith, replaced in favor of the more recent Darth Bane trilogy that draws HEAVILY from both. But not the basis and origin of the galaxy. None can rightly destroy a good story, a first story, to make their own. It is rare when they succeed and are right to be successful.
Master Jedi, before this I tried to stomp on you and another. Before this I tried to more civilly reason with you as well. Yet now since you are an Admin, with influence, I will remind you with all firmness that there is very little room for the kind of rationale and approach towards canon you take on this wiki, and no room left on this forum for nonsense attempts to answer questions on canon with overridden numbers from some time ago.
Since you are an Admin, I am pulling rank, I am pulling on your rank and bringing you to a point of temperance and refrain. PERSONALLY...I have gone through this before. People get turned the wrong way when you break a rule that is, whether intended originally or not, subjected to wide interpretation in a chaotic community network that pumps up this ballooning info site. Then you get gentle reminders, stern reprimands, or groundlessly banned. Trust my experience.
But you missed it. You missed it all. You missed the point of this wiki, and even worse, the point of Star Wars. As an Admin, that should get you banned. Some of what you say I can sense to be completely opposite to the goal of this datasource.
However, as Master Skywalker once said when meditating on the differences between the Sith and Jedi codes, your wrongdoing is subtle. We think it obvious the differences between Sith and Jedi, yet it is very subtle at times. As an Admin, empowered to help govern this wiki, you should most likely be let go. But...I have had to bite my tongue because of others. And am grateful they did not kick me out for good. Instead of your resignation then, you and I will reflect on what subtle, yet crucial differences there are between the light and dark side of this argument.
I am not saying you should necessarily be banned ever. I really should not be here myself. I am saying you should have self-control. Speak on the subjects at the proper time and place. Here is not the place, and there are times where doubts about the movies should not become an answer.
I'm not saying be silent, I am saying the common denomination with us is our love and enjoyment of Star Wars...Which you are missing out on. There is nothing artistic about the sizes they have given at times, and many of the reference materials should not have been licensed. Do not say the movies make use of artistic license, for they are the beginning of the rules, the laws of nature and truth, which do govern the galaxy.
And really...Let us consider. The facts you defend from the weight of the movies can be trampled, if you are right, just as easily as the movies themselves. Instability, no continuity, no history, no facts, no story line, no galaxy, no thing in it, and nothing to enjoy.
Is that really what you want? Nothing to last and to enjoy in this galaxy. Do you want to be fed interesting marvels and grandeur only to have them yanked from inside yah heart? It will be painful, let us remember from the past. These words are not to undermine your position and get you banned. No one touch him for it. Nobody watch my back. Master Jedi, this is for reasoning with you, for showing you how far your train of thought travels. And how fast. Recognize how much is lost if we adopt that way of thinking. It is hard, Star Wars itself is beginning to come off its hinges. But I am hoping to see the problems unmade. What are you hoping to see happen?
For if it is the destruction of Star Wars, I shall draw my saber edged with the blood red of my enemies, led by the Dark Side, and confront you with undying hat--
Wait, Wait...What color is your lightsaber? Earlier I said this Q&A forum was not the place for noncanon answers. Frankly, this means it is also not the place for a fantasy roleplay battle. Keeping the end to this on a light tone, still, shout out your crystal's color and the blade's before we have a few passes and you lie defeated, Jedi dog. Yes? No? (Waves hand slowly through the air) Yeesss... 188.8.131.52 18:35, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
I suggest you read through wikipedia:WP:TLDR and heed its advice, as I have neither the interest nor the attention span necessary to attempt to read this wall of text. —MJ—Comlink 19:43, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, thanks for directing me to a work of opinion and no actual policy against me. That might be a first. Feels good.
And I am going to call you out on your duty as an Admin to read this. Further my last challenge still stands. I will swipe at your head while calling power converter to me with the Force.184.108.40.206 19:48, October 11, 2013 (UTC)