This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Knowledge Bank page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. Graestan(Talk) 01:11, March 15, 2011 (UTC)
Wasn't able to find this elsewhere, other input would be appreciated.
How canonically accepted is the story of the 501st Legion in Battlefront II?
The primary reason I bring this up is the cutscene following the story mission on Felucia. The narrator states that Secura praises the troops fighting alongside her as they were being shipped out, then recounts that they were grateful for the helmets they wore as they would have been unable to meet her gaze.
This could be interpreted as guilt from foreknowledge of Order 66's execution, but since it's been stated that the order was not preprogrammed it does make me wonder if the storyline there is generally accepted as valid.
The Battlefront story is canon, however the gameplay aspects are not. There are a number of reasons why they might have been unable to meet her eyes. Knowledge of Order 66 is indeed a possibility, and perhaps what the game's creators were intending, but it's not the only one. For all we know, it may very well have been because they were uneasy with being singled out as the finest troops Aayla had served with. Nothing's been said one way or another, as far as I'm aware, but to answer your question, again, yes the story is canon. Bella'Mia 03:27, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
I can understand that point, but it's the first I'd seen of clone troopers being portrayed as bashful upon receiving farewell praise from a superior officer. Particularly given that this is the 501st we're talking about and that the mission had, in all aspects, been a success since their intervention, if I remember correctly. Had they failed and received such praise regardless I could understand, but under the circumstances the only normal reaction I can see them having is pride or a sense of accomplishment.
And obviously the gameplay can't be considered canon, since the specific actions and events are specific to each player. I wouldn't have expected things like mission objectives or even the sequence of missions in the campaign to be canonical, but this is different.
"Cut off, and for all we knew, abandoned by our superiors, our only hope was Aayla Secura, our Jedi commander. Without her iron will, none of us would have made it out of that mess with our sanity… or our lives."
"When the 501st was rotated out of Felucia, General Secura saw to it that she would see us off personally; calling us the bravest men she ever seen. It was a good thing we were wearing helmets, because none of us could bear to look her in the eye."
―Anonymous 501st clone trooper talking about the 501st's departure from Felucia.
I don't think it's too much of a stretch to take these two comments in context as being made by a clone trooper who owed Ayla Secura his life and that of his brothers. When she complimented them on a job well done, they knew the truth behind their success wasn't their doing, but hers. That's my take on it now that I've examined it, but I can see where this may be taken as a hint of what was to come. As I generally thought that myself without thinking too much about it, until this question came up. AT-AT Driver 04:45, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
Remember that the 501st Legion were among the elite of the Clone Army. It's possible that they knew what was being planned. I'm thinking they were told either shortly before or shortly after Mygeeto, since on Mygeeto they were tasked with stealing the power crystal. They were told, either beforehand or afterward, that it was for the Superlaser. So since these guys, as the best of the best of the best, were sent on Empire-relevant missions before the Empire rose, so they probably knew the vague details of the plans. Or, at least some of them did. Taral, Dark Lord of the Sith-Just shy, not antisocial: You can talk to me!- 14:33, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
This may be true, but remember also that the clone keeping the 501st Journal is referred to as a singular retired clone trooper. As it can be assumed that this trooper participated in each of the campaigns the players undertakes within the game, he would have been active until at least some time late in the Galactic Civil War, and may have indeed learned the truth of the Mygeetan crystal or Palpatine's plans later, relating his entries in the past tense with the information he gained after the fact. As far as I'm aware, though, it's all just theory. Bella'Mia 06:20, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
It does all seem a little undefined. Yes the 501st were the Emperor's exclusive unit and they did have a secrect agenda at Mygeeto to be kept from the jedi, but there isn't really anything definitive saying they knew beforehand that Order 66 would eventually come down. Unless we look at the order of events after they left Utapau and were heading back to Coruscant to take over the temple.
The 501st apparently left Utapau after General Kenobi defeated General Greivous, yet before Order 66 was transmitted, at least to Commander Cody, the commanding officer on Utapau. The 501st knowing where they were headed and what they were about to do, is somewhat of a clue to prior knowlege. So I'd have to change tac again and go with that. Kinda makes them even more badass I guess.AT-AT Driver 05:20, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
"we realized the Jedi could be fooled. And if they could be fooled, they could be killed"
I think the entry above implies that they knew of Order 66, because this entry talks about executing it. brightfur 00:02, December 25, 2010 (UTC)
That's true, though every clone is aware of the order codes and what they mean. Still, the implication of it's inevitabilty is definitely there.Ghostmaker 06:31, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
Also, I noticed that in EP III when Palpatine is issuing Order 66, he says to Commander Cody "The time has come. Execute Order 66."--CT-1987 14:40, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
What you are saying there is that Commander Cody had prior knowledge as well. Though he wasn't a member of the 501st. Does that mean all clone commanders that received the order, knew before hand they would eventually kill the jedi? I doubt that to be the case. Sensitive information like that would only be disseminated on a strictly "need to know" basis, so having commanders out in the field with the general troops and jedi, with that information, would be an unnecessary risk. I think Palpatine simply gave an order and it was followed without question by loyal clones. Much better than asking them all to keep a very important secret for 3 or 4 years. The Emperor saying "The time has come", doesn't really imply that Cody knew IMO. He was just making a statement. It's like this; "The time has come for you to do this for the republic, so you'd better do it, or you'll be in deep trouble!" lol
Also, portraying the clones as heroic all through the clones wars, yet being duplicious backstabbers all along, raises some ethical issues I'm sure lucasfilm would not have intended.The Space Cowboy 01:36, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
If the 501st had prior knowledge, it must have been late in the war. We still don't know Captain Rex's fate, but to assume he knew Order 66 would eventually be given with knowledge he would eventually have to kill his commanding officer and friend General Skywalker, seems unlikely, as he is portrayed as hero as much as any clone. Obviously nobody knows Palpatine is the second sith that is intending to turn Skywalker to the darkside. I guess the Battle of Mygeeto in late 20 BBY and the 501st with their mission for the Chancellor fits as their first introduction to the idea. Time may tell. Ghostmaker 03:26, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
If Order 66 was on a need-to-know basis, the 501st definitely would have had knowledge from the start. I have my own theories about CC-7567's fate, but I'll keep them private until we know what happened to put CC-1119 in charge. Also clones were good actors, they fooled Ki-Adi Mundi on Mygeeto, Rex would probably be able to keep his cover until whatever happened, happened. brightfur 15:33, January 8, 2011 (UTC)
In Star Wars: Battlefront II there are plenty of continuity issues, which is the foundation of this delightful and refreshing debate. I do not say anything as though I am entirely sure because, after all, this topic's a bit grey.
Of course Palpatine had the destruction of the Jedi planned from the beginning, but I doubt he would have shared his plans with anyone but his apprentices. This plan and the secrecy of the Rule of Two go back to Darth Bane.
I think that when Palpatine said 'the time has come...' he may have meant it in a way that implies Sith scheming (perhaps for theatrical effect and to let everyone know that Sidious is evil), even if Commander Cody would not understand the whole Sith thing. Of course, Commander Cody must have known what the order was if he was able to execute it. Also, I trust that I can safely presume that Cody had no part in the scheming (they will obey any order without question).
Personally, I don't believe the 501st had knowledge from the beginning. They were clones, even if elites, and not privy to the affairs of state (or the Sith). They only obeyed; when the Empire was formed, clones for the most part didn't seem to have allegiance issues.
To be certain, though, you'd have to ask George. 188.8.131.52 17:22, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
They may not have had knowledge from the start, but the 501st had to have had knowledge in the final few months of the Clone Wars. If they did not have knowledge at least from The Battle of Mygeeto, they would have found concealing the real objective of the mission from Mundi very odd wouldn't they? They were also doing things that apparently were for Palpatine's agenda, which probably had a lot to do with the Empire and destroying the Jedi. If they didn't have knowledge at least from The Battle of Mygeeto, they probably would have worked out that Palpatine was planning to take over for themselves. brightfur 17:39, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
That makes sense. I should think then that the Battle of Mygeeto or events shortly thereafter saw the highest ranking clones and elite divisions informed of the Order. It's true that while they were bred to obey, they were not stupid (far superior to battle droids) and many may have had suspicions before the Order's execution. That does, however, raise the issue of duty and whether a dutiful clone who was suspect of Palpatine's ambitions might have made his thoughts known.
184.108.40.206 17:47, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
If Palpatine didn't order all the clones not to speak of Order 66 then he was incredibly stupid. It is most likely that he ordered them not to speak of it. A clone who had not been told and merely had figured it out for himself probably would tell his Jedi superiors, because if Palpatine hadn't ordered him not to tell, what would there be between him and telling his commanding officers and friends the Jedi that Palpatine was planning to annihilate them? brightfur 18:17, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
I've been told that Order 66 was known even to the Jedi, but that it was an order only to be executed if the Jedi rebelled against the Republic. Therefore, the Jedi wouldn't have expected it because they hadn't rebelled. That may not be true though. I forget where I read that. MasterFred(Whatever) 17:21, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
The idea that Captain Rex had prior knowledge is proposterous. But like much of the Clone Wars series, there are more than a few proposterous ideas being shoved in our faces.Bantha Cheese 09:12, January 24,
I always interpreted as this: they culdn't bear to look her in the eye because she was the one who saved them. Just my input. -Some random annon 220.127.116.11 18:22, January 26, 2011 (UTC)
Back on the topic of who knew about order 66, wht did Jango Fett mean when he said, 'They'll do their job well'? This seems to imply that Fett had an idea of their purpose.GreenTis4poofs 15:39, January 27, 2011 (UTC)
Umm...no it doesn't. That's pure speculation. The Jedi knew of Order 66 because it was a perfectly legitimate order. If the Jedi were ever to rebel against the Republic, then the order would go into effect. The Jedi never did rebel, so they weren't expecting the order to ever take place. MasterFred(Whatever) 17:22, January 27, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for making me feel stupid. Now, what was it I said about the administration in a previous discussion...?
I just thought that this was an opportunity to ask exactly what Jango meant. He said it in a rather sinister way. Please, if you reply, don't hurt my feelings.GreenTis4poofs 18:12, January 27, 2011 (UTC)
The point, is if it was an order code known by the Jedi, wouldn't that mean clones knew about it, but didn't know about it's inevitability until later on? brightfur (Questions or comments) 21:49, January 28, 2011 (UTC)