This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Knowledge Bank page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. —MJ—War Room 03:45, December 4, 2012 (UTC)
((I hope this is the right forum to ask these questions))
When looking at the recent pre-Empire era of Alderaan, there was a dynastic crisis known as the Alderaan Ascendancy Contention between rival noble (or princely?) houses, primarily that of Organa and Antilles over who had proper claim to the position or title of Viceroy of Alderaan. It was ruled in favor of House Organa… but Breha Antilles becomes Queen.
This doesn’t make sense because the position of Viceroy… which comes from Vice Royal… is an archan deputy position, a position that is usually appointed by a king or queen to administer or represent them in a distant realm or dominion. Historically, the King of England who also held the title of Emperor of India appointed Viceroys to India to represent them there. Additionally, the king of England sent a Viceroy to Ireland from 1700 to 1922. So, Viceroy is a title more akin to Governor-General, someone who represents the monarch but is not a monarch themselves, sent to another dominion or realm. It would seem odd to appoint a Viceroy in your own country, unless the monarchy were traveling?
So, is the title for the ruler of Alderaan really and truely ‘viceroy’? And the spouse is a 'king-consort' or 'queen-consort'? Incidentally, the feminine form of Viceroy is Vicereine. So if Bail Organa was Viceroy it would be more correct to have Breha as Vicereine, or it would seem so anyway.
Because otherwise, if the delegation sent to mediate was to determine who the next ruler of Alderaan should be, then you would think that ( based on the title of Breha as ‘Queen of Alderaan’) that the delegation picked the Antilles family as rightful rulers by granting the title of ‘queen’ to Breha. Then, to ease relations between the two factions, they arranged for the marriage of Breha to Bail Organa, with Bail to also have rulership authority as 'Viceroy' (an odd pick for the spouse of a queen) Prince (Prince-Consort would be more common) and First Chairman (which sounds a lot like Prime Minister). Then, theoretically, the children between Breha and Bail would carry the Organa name (or Antilles-Organa), so in the end it would be the Organa family who would ultimately be the successors of the dispute.
As it seems now, the whole Alderaan Ascendancy Contention and rulership ofAlderaan seems awkward and lacking knowledge of royal titles and styles.
Can anyone point to any real proof that Bail wasn’t made King of Alderaan? This would make more sense than his wife would indeed be Queen. Sending Bail Organa as Senator also seems odd, too. But that is established cannon. I am not so certain about the sources here though, I do not have these books in front of me, but does anyone else? Does it actually say Bail Organa was made ‘Viceroy and First Chairman’ and not in fact king? —Unsigned comment byTheogony (talk • contribs).
Welcome to the madhouse, my friend. Your questions are by and large ones I've been trying to figure out—mostly in vain, I might add—when trying to keep the Alderaan Ascendancy Contention at Good Article status into which I promoted it some four years ago. My only answer at this point is that there isn't a good, canon answer, at least yet. What you see in our article is what we know, officially.
As for Bail becoming the Viceroy: The original source in which the Ascendancy Contention was first mentioned, Dark Force Rising, actually states that it was Bail Organa's father who was elected as the Viceroy at the contention's close, something which all of the later sources have pretty much ignored. (This still needs to be added to the article, and I'm working on it, but it's slow going trying to navigate all of the conflicting sources...) But DFR definitely uses the term "Viceroy" and not "King," and I for one haven't seen Bail being called a "King" anywhere. One possible explanation is that the use of the term "Viceroy" on Alderaan differs from the way we use it in the English language, but that's just speculation on my part. To make an even bigger mess of this whole nomenclatural thing, the ROTS novelization actually calls Bail a "Prince Consort," suggesting that Breha was indeed the actual ruler of Alderaan. Now, if you'll excuse me while I go and start some serious head-desking... Tinwe(comlink) 09:54, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
The world of Star Wars has never been too clear with formal titles and style of address anyway. Remember Return of the Jedi, when Luke Skywalker calls Emperor Palpatine "Your Highness." Similarly, in The Phantom Menace, no one seems to be sure if they should call Queen Amidala "Your Highness" or "Your Majesty"—although the latter should be used. However, as Tinwe aptly told you, the Alderaanian issue has always been something of mess, even more so since the release of Revenge of the Sith. Not sure that helps, but the oldest mention of the "Viceroy" title for Bail Organa was in the novelization of A New Hope itself, with Princess Leia saying: "I break your solitude at the bidding of my father, Bail Organa, Viceroy and First Chairman of the Alderaan system." It's an old established fact. --LelalMekha (talk) 23:38, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the responses. Yes, the EU is so agonizing contradictory that amazing leaps of faith are needed to reconcile desperate points. It is discouraging, as Alderaan has always been my favorite planet. Is it too much to ask for some semblance of consistency with the use of titles? lol.
I read up on the ROTS novelization article, and at the end there is a quote from the author Stover:
Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.
What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.
So, Lucas signed off on 'Prince-consort' for the role of Bail Organa, husband of the Queen. And it would make more sense for the Queen to dispatch her husband as Senator of Alderaan, because it would be highly difficult to govern if your spending all of your time pouring over the latest Senatorial machinations.
Of course, this does leave open exactly what role a Prince-Consort actually takes in Alderaanian politics. Maybe Prince-Consort really means 'king' lol. Idontknow, it would be nice to have a consistent policy here. Theogony (talk) 05:38, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
According to the now defunct StarWars.com databank on Bail Organa—which was released post-Revenge of the Sith, Bail Organa actually stepped down from his position as Viceroy while he acted as a Senator, only reclaiming his title when Leia became Senator herself. At the very least, we know only two things for sure with what a Viceroy is: it is an elective function with high powers, and you can't be the Viceroy and the Senator at the same time. --LelalMekha (talk) 09:31, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
...except that there are at least a few EU sources that say the position of Viceroy is hereditary. :P Tinwe(comlink) 10:34, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
Stang! if I dare say. I wanted to let Theogony know (if he or she still reads this page) I've decided to ask Leland Chee on Facebook. I sincerely doubt he'll answer, but at least we should try. --LelalMekha (talk) 11:26, October 27, 2012 (UTC)