Forum:SH:CCG Force stats
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This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. —MJ— Comlink 18:30, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
Among the Star Wars Customizable Card Game's in-game stats included certain Force abilities for characters, which included being "Force-sensitive" and "Force-attuned." How canon should these stats be viewed as? I always viewed them as fully canon, and back in 2008 became aware of them when I read certain characters' Yodapedia articles, in which Sompeetalay chose to treat those Force abilities as fully canon as well. I know that Toprawa considers those abilities to be fully canon, as shown in his Ardan article, but more recently, SavageBob presented a different view in regards to those abilities, saying that they were simply game mechanics, however he did bring up that apparently Han Solo is Force-attuned in that game, when clearly he isn't. I was thinking this could possibly be a CT, but I'm not sure, so starting this thread for the time being. Please share your thoughts. Hanzo Hasashi 03:47, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Pretty sure that we have always considered the stats on trading cards game mechanics, and therefore non-canon. In my opinion, considering them canon would be a bad idea—we'd start quantifying powers and abilities, which would spark useless fanboy debates about who's more powerful than who, and then we'd get people clamoring for or even making up stats for characters who don't have them. There's really nothing to be gained from including game stats—we're a factual wiki about the history of a universe, not a repository of stats and statistics for trading cards. video games, or roleplaying. Cade Calrayn
03:55, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) "Force-sensitive" can only be interpreted one way, but I'm not so sure about "Force-attuned". It may be that "Force-attuned" merely represents some game mechanic and doesn't actually mean that the character is Force-sensitive (e.g. Han Solo), but that the "Force-sensitive" label means exactly what it says and is fully canon. How do the rules describe what it means to be "Force-attuned"? —MJ— Council Chambers Monday, May 14, 2012, 03:57 UTC
- Force-attuned is a step down from Force-sensitive. Hanzo Hasashi 03:59, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
- From the official rules: "Force-Attuned -- a level of Force sensitivity that indicates minimal awareness of and strength in the Force, but no training (represented in the game by an ability level of 3)" Hanzo Hasashi 04:01, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
- "Force attuned" is clearly a game mechanic, meant to represent both minor characters with genuine but low-key Force sensitivity (e.g. the precognitive Qiraash Leesub Sirln and the time-shifting Lamproid Dice Ibegon) as well as "important" characters without any hint of Force ability other than a dash of luck now and then (e.g. Han Solo, Lando Calrissian, Grand Moff Tarkin). But even the "Force-sensitive" stat was a game mechanic that didn't always line up with canon - they gave it to Thrawn, for instance, even though he has always been consistently described as having no Force sensitivity, most likely to represent his incredible tactical ability (since being Force-sensitive in the game was a side effect of having an Ability score of 4, which is the lowest score a character can have and draw battle destiny unaided). jSarek 05:48, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting. So they gave completely non-Force-sensitive characters the full Force-sensitive ability? Hanzo Hasashi 14:09, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
- OK, then, if characters known to not be Force-sensitive are being labeled as Force-sensitive, then this is clearly game mechanics and shouldn't be considered canon on any card. —MJ— War Room Monday, May 14, 2012, 18:01 UTC
- To be fair, Thrawn is the only example I can think of where this happened (though I admittedly paid little attention to the Episode I-related expansions), but in at least that one case, yes, they did. I would treat the Force sensitive stat like we treat many game stats: as a useful guidepost that may provide information about a character, but that necessarily takes a back seat to the narrative. jSarek 00:15, May 15, 2012 (UTC)
- Copy/pasting what I said on IRC, with some slight editing: The Force-attuned thing is clearly game mechanics. Overlook it and all game mechanics. However, actual powers and abilities are not. If they are applied to people who are not Force-sensitive in any way shape or form, though, ignore that. I think this is like how we view videogames. Some aspects that are obviously superseded by other sources are game mechanics. Other aspects that are not or are collaborated by other sources are thus not game mechanics and can be taken as canon. However, the Force-attuned thing is an obvious game mechanic, which is not canon. So we can't discount the entire thing, but we can discount the game mechanics. Trak Nar Ramble on 03:34, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree with this 100%. If a character is identified by his CCG card to be Force-attuned and nothing else in canon contradicts this in any way, there is absolutely zero reason to disregard and ignore this as game mechanics. Take Ardan here. This is his CCG card. (If the link doesn't work for you, click reload or try opening it up in a different browser and it should appear). The card states simply that he is Force-attuned. This doesn't mean he moonlights as a Jedi or a Sith or dabbles in Force studies. It just means Ardan, like many individuals in the galaxy, has a certain sensitivity to the Force, which the game obviously invites you to exploit for game-playing purposes. But that doesn't mean this information should be treated as anything less than legitimate. Everyone and everything in Star Wars is bound by the Force. Every person is connected to the Force in some manner, some more than others. It's not hard to imagine that perhaps Ardan has a minor Force-attunement greater than your average citizen that in another time and place in Star Wars history may have been identified and nurtured, but which is being ignored and lost in the anti-Jedi Imperial society. Why is this so hard to wrap our minds around? Nothing contradicts this information, so I included it in the article when I wrote it up. Now, obviously, if there are cases where something is undeniably contradictory, then that needs to be treated differently on a case-by-case basis. But in cases like Ardan, this is perfectly legitimate for inclusion into our articles. Toprawa and Ralltiir 23:06, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
- I think the problem is that the Decipher game seems to use "Force-attuned" to represent any character who is above cannon-fodder or second-fiddle status. That's why Lando, Han, and Tarkin are "Force-attuned" -- because they're main characters and not supporting ones. Their Force-attunement is what the West End Games RPG defined as having lots of Force points. So, yeah, it's some connection to the FOrce, but, like you say, not one that indicates Force-sensitivity of any sort. With that said, I wouldn't have a problem with a new page called Force-attuned. The problem is pipe linking [[Force-sensitive|Force-attuned]] since they're not the same thing, and Force attuned is so ambiguous in meaning. ~Savage
01:42, June 5, 2012 (UTC)
- I think the problem is that the Decipher game seems to use "Force-attuned" to represent any character who is above cannon-fodder or second-fiddle status. That's why Lando, Han, and Tarkin are "Force-attuned" -- because they're main characters and not supporting ones. Their Force-attunement is what the West End Games RPG defined as having lots of Force points. So, yeah, it's some connection to the FOrce, but, like you say, not one that indicates Force-sensitivity of any sort. With that said, I wouldn't have a problem with a new page called Force-attuned. The problem is pipe linking [[Force-sensitive|Force-attuned]] since they're not the same thing, and Force attuned is so ambiguous in meaning. ~Savage
- I disagree with this 100%. If a character is identified by his CCG card to be Force-attuned and nothing else in canon contradicts this in any way, there is absolutely zero reason to disregard and ignore this as game mechanics. Take Ardan here. This is his CCG card. (If the link doesn't work for you, click reload or try opening it up in a different browser and it should appear). The card states simply that he is Force-attuned. This doesn't mean he moonlights as a Jedi or a Sith or dabbles in Force studies. It just means Ardan, like many individuals in the galaxy, has a certain sensitivity to the Force, which the game obviously invites you to exploit for game-playing purposes. But that doesn't mean this information should be treated as anything less than legitimate. Everyone and everything in Star Wars is bound by the Force. Every person is connected to the Force in some manner, some more than others. It's not hard to imagine that perhaps Ardan has a minor Force-attunement greater than your average citizen that in another time and place in Star Wars history may have been identified and nurtured, but which is being ignored and lost in the anti-Jedi Imperial society. Why is this so hard to wrap our minds around? Nothing contradicts this information, so I included it in the article when I wrote it up. Now, obviously, if there are cases where something is undeniably contradictory, then that needs to be treated differently on a case-by-case basis. But in cases like Ardan, this is perfectly legitimate for inclusion into our articles. Toprawa and Ralltiir 23:06, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
- "Force attuned" is clearly a game mechanic, meant to represent both minor characters with genuine but low-key Force sensitivity (e.g. the precognitive Qiraash Leesub Sirln and the time-shifting Lamproid Dice Ibegon) as well as "important" characters without any hint of Force ability other than a dash of luck now and then (e.g. Han Solo, Lando Calrissian, Grand Moff Tarkin). But even the "Force-sensitive" stat was a game mechanic that didn't always line up with canon - they gave it to Thrawn, for instance, even though he has always been consistently described as having no Force sensitivity, most likely to represent his incredible tactical ability (since being Force-sensitive in the game was a side effect of having an Ability score of 4, which is the lowest score a character can have and draw battle destiny unaided). jSarek 05:48, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
