This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. —MJ— Training Room 18:25, November 13, 2012 (UTC)
Hey, everyone. I think we need a bit of clarity on how and where to use the cut content templates, {{Cutstart}} and {{Cutend}}. By my count, these templates are used in 20 articles, and not consistently. In some articles, the material contained within the templates is placed within the body (non-lead and non-"Behind the scenes") section of the article. It's worth noting, too, that most of the articles that use the cut content templates in the BTS are status articles (FAs mostly), while those that do not are not status articles. Examples that use the templates within the main part of the article (not "Behind the scenes") include Bib Fortuna, Ki-Adi-Mundi, M4-78, Tanbris, Adalric Cessius Brandl, and Fex-M3.
In other articles, the cut content is placed in "Behind the scenes." This is done with the articles Nial Declann, Martio Batch, Miltin Takel, Octavian Grant, Rukh, Josef Grunger, Afsheen Makati, Peccati Syn, Deadeye Duncan, Rufaan Tigellinus, Osvald Teshik, Laigrek, Betl Oxtroe, and T'Charek Haathi.
Clearly, then, the de facto policy seems to be to use the cut content templates in the BTS, and to write the section as if it were in-universe and part of the main article. My guess is that this was done to follow the precedent set by AdmirableAckbar, an FA machine and someone truly admirable, who was the first to nominate a Grand Admiral article back in 2008. But I'm not sure it's the best way to use those templates, which is why I've started this Senate Hall thread.
Basically, using the cut content templates in BTS and writing the prose within them as in-universe strikes me as jarring. Everything else in BTS is written out-of-universe, but with these templates, the reader is suddenly shocked back to in-universe style, and no effort is made (aside from the templates) to indicate what is going on. It seems far more sensible to me to use the templates in the main body of the article, as the first group of articles above have done. Or—and I think this is the better solution—it seems better to deprecate the templates and simply write about the cut content in an out-of-universe fashion from within the BTS section. In other words, rather than this paragraph, in Martio Batch, enclosed within cut content templates:
- Shortly after being appointed Grand Admiral, Batch was given a direct order by the Emperor: create a fool-proof cloaking device or face execution. Batch made occasional appearances with his fellow Grand Admirals at New Year Fete parties or military fund-raisers; however, he knew his life hinged on the success of the project. Batch experimented with hundreds of new designs without success, with his flawed hibridium design being his most promising. Desperate to show the Emperor he was making progress, the Grand Admiral sent Palpatine prototypes of ships using his hibridium cloak, which the Emperor stored in his secret vaults inside Mount Tantiss.
We would write something like this, with no templates:
- The original Gamer article, titled Dirty Dozen: The Imperial Grand Admirals, contained more information about Batch and was longer than the version appearing in Insider. According to a draft of the article, distributed as a Microsoft Word document by its author, Batch was given a direct order by the Emperor shortly after being appointed Grand Admiral: create a fool-proof cloaking device or face execution. The longer version of the article explains that Batch made occasional appearances with his fellow Grand Admirals at New Year Fete parties or military fund-raisers; however, he knew his life hinged on the success of the project. Batch experimented with hundreds of new designs without success, with his flawed hibridium design being his most promising. Desperate to show the Emperor he was making progress, the Grand Admiral sent Palpatine prototypes of ships using his hibridium cloak, which the Emperor stored in his secret vaults inside Mount Tantiss.
This style (by simply indicating in prose where the information comes from and reminding the reader from time-to-time that this is draft material and not canon) makes the templates unnecessary and doesn't jar as much from the vast majority of our BTS sections. In other words, BTS should not include material written as if it's in-universe in my opinion. It should all be written out-of-universe. And if we write all of it in such a style, the cut content templates become redundant.
What do others think? ~Savage
17:29, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
- I kind of like this idea; as long as we keep this information in the BTS and still clarify precisely where the cut content begins and ends, then there's no need for the template. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 18:28, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Looks good. Maybe have a "Cut content" section heading or something, but this is definitely a much better way to do it. Cade Calrayn
18:30, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Mm, cut content section heading—I like that. Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 18:46, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Looks good. Maybe have a "Cut content" section heading or something, but this is definitely a much better way to do it. Cade Calrayn
- I'd prefer to move the cut content back to the main body in articles where it's in the BTS. That's what the template is for. -- Darth Culator (Talk) 20:45, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
- FWIW, I think it's better to present cut content in the BTS (whether it's with the tag or without) than in the IU text. Yes, the tag has a purpose if we put the cut content in the main body, but it doesn't make sense to put that info there, because cut content is by definition BTS material, no? Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 21:13, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with you, Jon, but I can also see the other side. After all, we include ambiguous material and possibly non-canon material in the main body of articles by using similar templates, such as {{Ambigstart}}, {{Gamemechanics}}, {{Noncanonstart}}, {{RPGseed}}, and {{Talesstart}}. I wouldn't want to see all of these made BTS-only, although they technically all break the in-universe, unambiguously canon status of the main part of our articles. ~Savage 23:02, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
- The problem with including the information in the actual article is that some material - especially that found in the various Grand Admiral's BTS - would need to be inserted throughout the article, not just in a neat little section on its own. Nial Declann's for example, would need to establish a cut content homeworld right at the beginning, then add further details in throughout the bio. We would be in the position of going something like "Nial Declann, a Human male<ref name="a ref">A reference</ref> {{Cutcontent}}from Raithal{{EndCutContent}}, was ..." This would be stylistically terrible. BTS is the only way to go here. Personally, I don't mind the way we display the information currently (and not just because I have an article on the FAN that uses this method) and would put forward the option that since precedent has been established, that we could, in fairness, "grandfather" in the use of IU BTS for cut content. - Cavalier One
(Squadron channel) 14:32, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
- I obviously disagree with the grandfathering notion (or else I wouldn't have started this SH ;) ) but in fairness, the ugly, piecemeal templates have long been established in precedent as well. Check out what I had to do on Muza and Clantaani to indicate what was and was not assuming a roleplaying or video game scenario went as intended, for instance. For that reason, going with a "include it in the main article, use templates" approach wouldn't be anything new. ~Savage 15:11, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
- While the articles you cite are fairly "ugly" as you put it (the layout, not the articles :P), at least they are full sentences. In the Declann instance I refered to above, a single, or at best three to four, words that form part of a sentence would have to be encased in a cut content template. This isn't just ugly, it's silly. As for the grandfather notion, I put it forward in the interest of neutrality. The option should be given in any CT that forms out of this. We have standardised article layouts and the like from similar article layouts that were in use before being formally adopted. This case is no different. - Cavalier One(Squadron channel) 15:25, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, yeah, I'd definitely want to see the Grand Admiral-style cut content offered as a choice in any CT, along with the other options that have been suggested above. As for tiny things like that, I think it would be contingent on the writer to make sure the cut content templates only surrounded complete sentences. So, in the case of Declann, it could say something like, "Nial Declann was a Human male.<ref name="a ref">A reference</ref> {{Cutcontent}}He hailed from the [[Planet/Legends|planet]] [[Raithal]].{{EndCutContent}} He later..." This is similar to what I had to do do in Clantaani to indicate whether certain people were captured as bounties or not. It's ugly, but it should be doable without having to resort to fragments within the template. :) And I hope I haven't come off as antagonistic in this conversation; even though I don't like the combination of template+in-universe prose+BTS cut content, I think the articles that have used that approach are some of the finest on the wiki. :) ~Savage 15:37, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, yeah, I'd definitely want to see the Grand Admiral-style cut content offered as a choice in any CT, along with the other options that have been suggested above. As for tiny things like that, I think it would be contingent on the writer to make sure the cut content templates only surrounded complete sentences. So, in the case of Declann, it could say something like, "Nial Declann was a Human male.<ref name="a ref">A reference</ref> {{Cutcontent}}He hailed from the [[Planet/Legends|planet]] [[Raithal]].{{EndCutContent}} He later..." This is similar to what I had to do do in Clantaani to indicate whether certain people were captured as bounties or not. It's ugly, but it should be doable without having to resort to fragments within the template. :) And I hope I haven't come off as antagonistic in this conversation; even though I don't like the combination of template+in-universe prose+BTS cut content, I think the articles that have used that approach are some of the finest on the wiki. :) ~Savage
- While the articles you cite are fairly "ugly" as you put it (the layout, not the articles :P), at least they are full sentences. In the Declann instance I refered to above, a single, or at best three to four, words that form part of a sentence would have to be encased in a cut content template. This isn't just ugly, it's silly. As for the grandfather notion, I put it forward in the interest of neutrality. The option should be given in any CT that forms out of this. We have standardised article layouts and the like from similar article layouts that were in use before being formally adopted. This case is no different. - Cavalier One
- I obviously disagree with the grandfathering notion (or else I wouldn't have started this SH ;) ) but in fairness, the ugly, piecemeal templates have long been established in precedent as well. Check out what I had to do on Muza and Clantaani to indicate what was and was not assuming a roleplaying or video game scenario went as intended, for instance. For that reason, going with a "include it in the main article, use templates" approach wouldn't be anything new. ~Savage
- The problem with including the information in the actual article is that some material - especially that found in the various Grand Admiral's BTS - would need to be inserted throughout the article, not just in a neat little section on its own. Nial Declann's for example, would need to establish a cut content homeworld right at the beginning, then add further details in throughout the bio. We would be in the position of going something like "Nial Declann, a Human male<ref name="a ref">A reference</ref> {{Cutcontent}}from Raithal{{EndCutContent}}, was ..." This would be stylistically terrible. BTS is the only way to go here. Personally, I don't mind the way we display the information currently (and not just because I have an article on the FAN that uses this method) and would put forward the option that since precedent has been established, that we could, in fairness, "grandfather" in the use of IU BTS for cut content. - Cavalier One
- I agree with you, Jon, but I can also see the other side. After all, we include ambiguous material and possibly non-canon material in the main body of articles by using similar templates, such as {{Ambigstart}}, {{Gamemechanics}}, {{Noncanonstart}}, {{RPGseed}}, and {{Talesstart}}. I wouldn't want to see all of these made BTS-only, although they technically all break the in-universe, unambiguously canon status of the main part of our articles. ~Savage
- FWIW, I think it's better to present cut content in the BTS (whether it's with the tag or without) than in the IU text. Yes, the tag has a purpose if we put the cut content in the main body, but it doesn't make sense to put that info there, because cut content is by definition BTS material, no? Jonjedigrandmaster (Talk) 21:13, May 26, 2012 (UTC)
A couple of side points[]
For templates that go in the in-universe section, and Bob has listed most of them up top, I think we should make them less obtrusive. I created the RPGseed template, ensuring it was only one line, and using smaller font. Compare {{RPGseed}} with {{Noncanonstart}}. I think this reduces the 'ugliness' factor, allowing the article to flow with less abruptness, while still making the point. I suggest the other templates should be similarly shortened.
Another option for placing text in the in-universe section, could be to follow the StargateWiki approach, which uses background color together with a heading to indicate the duration of the non-canon/ambig/cut section. See for example Dean Newman and Mars. We could adjust our approach to something similar. --Eyrezer 20:44, May 29, 2012 (UTC)