Forums > Senate Hall > SH:Image policy

Hi, What the policy with before canon images from old photoshoots or models from ships? I was discussing with Lewisr, because Lexi Dio/Canon has a bad quality picture and Lexi Dio has a better one , but it started a revert thing because the legends one is from a legends source, but the new book from canon has almost the same image, just the hands are in another position, both photos are from the old photoshoots for Ep II.

My question is if its ok using a better quality picture from an old promo photoshoot released before the legends/canon separation in a canon article? I think that should apply only if image is the same or just with modified posture, because its not like it comes from a comic or a art image for a legends media, its from a promo shoot for the episode, the example that come to my mind its like not using Obi Wan promo shoot for Ep III because its from legends. The character is even the same, the new book confirmed it.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 02:17, May 29, 2017 (UTC)

  • If I had my druthers I'd agree with you here. The policy as has been enforced (inconsistently) seems to be that canon articles can only contain images from canon sources, but I would assert that promotional images of canon subjects like this shouldn't really be nitpicked over. If you were to ask Pablo or anyone else which image is canon the answer would almost certainly be "those are promotional images of a character staring into a camera, neither are canon because they never did that outside of a BTS photoshoot," or more likely "huh?" Which is to say that promotional BTS images of canon characters really shouldn't be subject to this kind of policy, just do what you can to make a presentable article—in this situation, the "canon" image is just not presentable. Trayus(Academy) 03:04, May 29, 2017 (UTC)
    • I've been thinking the same, especially because it doesn't represent an action just the character and if both legends and canon say that they're the same a promo photoshoot can be used in both articles--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 04:11, May 29, 2017 (UTC)
    • Any admin with an opinion about this? --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 14:13, May 29, 2017 (UTC)
    • Anyone else who wants to make an opinion about this. I pretty much agree with Trayus, but before making any edit. I would like to hear someone else opinion in this Important matter --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 06:47, June 1, 2017 (UTC)
      • Although I'm not an admin, I concur with your and Trayus' opinion. --Lelal Mekha The Uprising crest (Audience Room) 06:50, June 1, 2017 (UTC)
        • Totally agree with this -- 22:28, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
          • I think you still have to keep them separate. In the case of Lexi Dio, for instance, the Legends picture—while it came from the same real-world photoshoot—represents a completely different version of Lexi Dio than the Canon picture. You essentially have to treat them as if they are distinct characters from one another entirely. IFYLOFD (Talk) 22:55, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
            • I'm new but I've seen many articles in here with the same image in both canon and legends article. So I think that should be addressed. For example so we can't use Obi Wan photoshoot pic in the canon page, since by that logic it would be a different character?. I mean is just a promo photoshoot used in both articles. -- 23:01, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
              • I would be in favor of changing images in that case as well, provided that the image in question solely appears in a Legends source. The Lexi Dio image was in the Databank, a Legends source, and doesn't seem to reappear in a Canon source yet. If the Obi-Wan Legends article uses a photoshoot picture that appears in a Legends source but is then reused in a Canon source, then I'd say it's fine. IFYLOFD (Talk) 23:05, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
                • Hi, thanks for the answer IFLOYD but In my opinion that doesnt makes sense. Its kind of like the fair to assume species, ship models and planets. Like Trayus said if you ask any tory group member they would say that its the same. We need to use more the logic in this case its not like we took the image from a comic or art from the legends continuity, its from Episode II if you see the movie and find the character its going to be wearing the same costume --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 23:38, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
                  • The problem is, that image isn't from Episode II. It's from a photoshoot. Those photos are only defined and canonized by what sources they appear in, not their proximity to Episode II. It's already been well-established that not everything tying in with the original six films are canon, including the novelizations and so on. IFYLOFD (Talk) 23:41, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
                    • The image with the same outfit, same face and different hand position make it different in canon terms? --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 23:46, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
                      • I would say they do, as nitpicky as it may seem. They aren't the same image. IFYLOFD (Talk) 23:48, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
                        • We use official pix images that are pretty much the same as this Lexi photo and images from lightsabers replicas as canon also, that in the way you're describing it aren't canon, or I'm wrong?--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 23:50, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
                          • I mean even Pablo has the same opinion [[1]]--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 23:54, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
                            • All I'm trying to say is, for Legends articles we should use images from Legends sources, and for Canon articles we should use images from Canon sources. Just because an image comes from a specific photoshoot doesn't mean it's either until it appears in something. IFYLOFD (Talk) 23:59, June 2, 2017 (UTC)
                              • Ok then, I will start removing legends images from canon articles. And what's the deal with those images that come from Official Pix or Master Replicas since its not canon or Legends--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 00:02, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
                                • I'm not saying we need to start unilaterally removing all Legends images. There might be cases where the same images appear in both Legends and Canon sources. It just doesn't appear that Lexi Dio is one of those cases. IFYLOFD (Talk) 00:04, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
                                  • Ok, well although I completly disagree with this, I understand your position and you're the admin. Just If there any other admin or member who would like to give an opinion go ahead. Because this is not the best approach in my opinion--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 00:09, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm gonna weigh in on this as well. Why do we have to have two separate images uploaded from a canon source for the canon article, and a legends source for the legends article? The images are identical. Why can't we just use the higher resolution image in both articles and just list both sources in the image information template? - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 00:04, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
    • I know, Lexi hands change from position and its a new character --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 00:07, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
      • We haven't said its a new character, just whether it was a okay to use on the canon page or not --Lewisr (talk) 00:11, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
        • I think miswrote that "Treat them as different", its ok. I mean I'm glad other users understand what I say and Pablo even saying that yes its the same character. Hopefully more people can express more what they think than the current policies. For example JMAS case--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 00:16, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
          • Well, I do think the two cases to need to be considered separately. I do understand that Floyd isn't saying they are different characters, ie Lexi. But the images are different, no matter how minute the difference, they are different. In the case I presented, the images are exactly the same in every detail. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 00:24, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
            • The image of Lexi is from the old Databank ehich is a legends source, I'm not arguing that they aren't the same character, just that a legends image shouldn't go on a canon page. In regards to JMAS, I was under the impression that if an image appears in a canon and legends source and is the exact same you would list both in the template rather than upload it twice --Lewisr (talk) 00:28, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
              • Ok then, so how would you proceed with images in canon articles that come from no official source like Official Pix and Master replica for lightsabers?? If I understand those shouln't be in any articles because they are not from a canon source--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 00:32, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
                • If it's not a canon source then we'd just simply replace it with something from a canon source --Lewisr (talk) 00:35, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
                  • In JMAS's case, I uploaded the Canon image separate from the Legends image because I noticed the Legends image had a "WALKS" watermark under the Star destroyer that the Canon one didn't have. Brules Brules signature Talk 00:42, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
  • I just want to say that Trayus was right here is Pablo's answer to this matter, same logic that I'm using [[2]] --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 01:26, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
    • We aren't really making excuses, you don't need to crap on us for following the policies, no matter what Pablo says --Lewisr (talk) 01:29, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
      • That's why the discussin is policy, sometimes policies need to change or be more specific even he says that photo comes from AOTC movie they made them for that.But ok I give up--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 01:33, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
      • And also is not for offending anyone, but I want you to see how crazy that policy is at least for photoshoot for movies, I'm not asking hey all old photoshoot make them canon, No, Im asking if an official source made a character name and appearance canon and the old legends has the same image from an old photoshoot which is not a Legends source is a BTS/movie source it should be fine to use them. Even canon books have done that, example the GR and Nebulon which the image was used in an old BTS book and was later used in a canon source. But hey its your wiki not mine, if you find that unnaceptable ok, Just wanted to use a better image than a really bad image --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 01:46, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
        • I understand what you're saying, maybe by having this discussion the process of some changes or something can begin. --Lewisr (talk) 01:52, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
          • I really really hope so, a change in that specific part would be good--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 02:04, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
  • Ok, I've been around and in 30 mins I found 85 pages with images from legends sources or toys sources, including the old databank. If we're proceding with this, then we need to start the process in replacing them all or at least look in references books if they appear there--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 04:51, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
    • Heck, even the old Databank segregated "canon" movie stuff from EU stuff in most of it's articles. IMO, OOU things like promo photos shouldn't be tied down by this sourcing argument. - Imperial Information Office AV-6R7Crew Pit 09:02, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
      • We use old promo photos in canon articles, we use old databank images in canon articles. I don't know why this is different--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 15:55, June 3, 2017 (UTC)
        • Promo photos and old databank images should be allowed in canon articles. There is no reason why these photos, which are from the canon films, should be excluded. They are not "inherently legends" and should be allowed on canon pages. Pablo's post here: [[3]] says as much and this policy should conform to this especially on pages such as [[4]] have promo images that work better.--Benjay2345 (User talk:Benjay2345|talk]]) 20:25, June 7, 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I've done the effort of verifying some of the canon pages of this wikia, as I previously said many articles had pictures of the Old databank, or legends sources. I tried to change them using the canon sources (ref books, new databank and the canon encylopedia) but some of them now are Imageless or with a low quality picture. After doing some of this work someone already saw that it was a bad idea and this policy shouldn't apply to promotional/movie pictures, if the new canon source confirmed name and outfit or the movie confirmed the look of the character we should be allowed to use the image. For example Breha Organa image and Breha Organa/Legends image, the the the visual encylopedia includes a image similar to the one in legends and in ROTS we see Breha, doesn't makes sense to categorize that image as Legends just because it was published before, and this happens to many of the articles. I hope some of you reconsider the policy and see that in some cases (not all) it should be allowed to use certain images published before the Legends/Canon creation --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 02:53, June 9, 2017 (UTC)

It's important to note that a lot of the promo images are used in either Star Wars: Card Trader or Star Wars: Force Collection both of which we treated as canon. Any character listed as appearing in the games will certainly have at least one image of fairly good quality that can be used. Ayrehead02 (talk) 10:29, June 9, 2017 (UTC)
  • The ones missing images doesnt appear in those sources I already looked in those.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 15:07, June 9, 2017 (UTC)

I have the same problem with OOU reference books based on the movies and TCW like "The Art Of" and "The Making Of". They really aren't canon or Legends, so they should be listed in both Legends and Canon pages. Yet we still arbitrarily segregate that stuff based on a release date. Pablo would have the same answered he had with ants promo images. - Imperial Information Office AV-6R7Crew Pit 15:17, June 9, 2017 (UTC)

Looking through the Card Trader appearances there seems to be a handful like Giran and Nute Gunray that could certainly have their current images improved by cleaner promo images from Card Trader, although maybe not any actually imageless ones. I haven't looked at Force Collection yet so there might be more instances there. Just wanted to make sure that people were aware of them as an image source. Ayrehead02 (talk) 15:19, June 9, 2017 (UTC)
  • I did , I didnt just erased images, theres some images in card trader (some images were already uploaded with diff source) There arent many images left there, but I wanted to stop for a while so people and admins could see. And exactly AV I mean it doesnt makes a lot of sense.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 15:25, June 9, 2017 (UTC)

My two cents: Canon and Legends are terms that apply to stories. Promotional photos of movie characters do not qualify for that distinction. Therefore they should be used in either article. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 15:32, June 9, 2017 (UTC)

  • Exactly, good to know theres more people that think the same.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 15:35, June 9, 2017 (UTC)
    • Unless a promo image is somehow altered to make it IU, I'd say it's not inherently canon or Legends. - Imperial Information Office AV-6R7Crew Pit 15:38, June 9, 2017 (UTC)
      • Yes it wouldnt apply to all. But for example the Breha case or Lexi Dio case. Where but of them are promo/character photos--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 15:42, June 9, 2017 (UTC)
        • Are we ever going to address this again. Its ridiculous, there're far more people that agree that canon/legends shouldn't apply to promo pics. -- 01:17, June 20, 2017 (UTC)
          • Someone will need to make a consensus track voting thread or bring it up at a mofference for a change to be properly implemented. Ayrehead02 (talk) 10:45, June 20, 2017 (UTC)
            • I'll do it, I proposed it, gonna bring it up to concensus track--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 17:43, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

A new CT page is up. If anyone want to go and vote, I would appreciate it. Thanks--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 17:55, June 20, 2017 (UTC)

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