This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. —MJ— ^{Jedi Council Chambers} 19:56, November 13, 2012 (UTC)

Hey everyone,

I'm thinking of putting together an article for Wookieepedia NewsNet encouraging new users to join and start editing Wookieepedia. The main focus is going to be on some of the obstacles new users face --- difficult coding, confusing policies, dejection stemming from receiving warnings, etc. What I'd love to do is to have quotes/short anecdotes from various members of the community that share some tips and/or share a story of how they overcame an obstacle early in their editing days. If you'd be interested in helping out with this, just leave your two creds here, either sharing a personal story or giving a tip on facing what you think a particularly challenging obstacle is. I think this kind of article will benefit from having encouragement from numerous community members rather than just me. I'll probably just copy and paste what you write, so write something you want to be quoted. Menkooroo (talk) 19:54, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

• In all honesty, the key to integration anywhere in life, including a wiki, is accepting that you're not important. You're not here to make friends. You're here to do a job. You're not the best. You bring nothing that someone elsewhere in the world cannot also bring. Star Wars is bigger than you. These things are hard for most of us to hear because we live in a world culture that resents individual insignificance in the grand scheme of things. Myself, I may have learned these lessons a little too ardently as after my joining the Wook, I swiftly became and continue to be rather unproductive and unambitious. But what little I do is satisfactory to me and for those who disagree, I don't care. I'm not here to please others, nor for that matter am I here to antagonize them. I'm here for Star Wars. Karohalva (talk) 20:36, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
• Well, I was banned twice when I was 15 and was the resident contributor with the attitude of a ten-year-old. In the end, neither was exactly because of my bad attitude, but stemmed instead from my horrible communication skills. The first was because of an unqualified statement in a highly charged discussion that I was given the opportunity to change. Silly me, I thought taking the garbage out was more important than what I said of someone online and I was gone by the time I walked back to the computer. I didn't even say I was taking it out. Lesson there? Everything you say matters. Don't take it lightly. On the other side of the screen are people who breathe just like you and are here because they love Star Wars, not because they want their feelings and reputations hurt by some guy/gal on the other side of their country.

The second ban came as the result of a complete lack of communication between myself and an administrator. I was trying to bring an article on a Sith who died during the Massacre of Ossus and it was egregiously long, fluffy. This was before we had Comprehensive Articles, so anything under 250 words couldn't be brought to status. This article on a character that died in his first of two panels approached 400-500 words, if memory serves. I initially aimed for 1000. But it wasn't the length that got me banned. When I put it up for status, people were wary of the length and that there were paragraphs that did not even mention the Sith, but I maintained it was necessary context for why he was on Ossus. Eventually, the nomination was removed because of that and I cut it down to renominate it. It was removed again, this time summarily and without archiving, by that administrator, who accused me of fanon because a date was written as concrete when it was supposed to be approximate. This made me mad, I'll not lie. I was furious and, despite the number of suggestions to just leave a message on his talk page, I lurked in the IRC waiting for him so we could talk there. I waited a month like this before just deciding to put it up again without talking to him. Guess who saw it and determined it was disruption? The administrator I didn't talk to. Second lesson? Talking is a Free Action. If you're having troubles with someone, you can always talk it over with them. You can't let anger or pride get in the way of that. Take a breath, suck it up, and talk anyway. NaruHina ^Talk 20:43, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

So, yeah, what Karo said, but with story. NaruHina ^Talk 20:47, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

• Karo nailed it. That is about precisely how I feel. I've always said that you're here to help Wookieepedia, not the other way around. We try to help new users, but they have to help themselves as well. We're here to get work done. We're not here to be a social group. Community is a fine thing, and I think Wookieepedia has a great community, one of the best on the web. However, that should not be the main focus. If a new user is joining because he wants to make friends with Star Wars people, they've come to the wrong place. They should go to TFN or some other forum. Wookieepedia is an encyclopedia. Nothing more. Nothing less. We should be here to work. Nothing more. Nothing less. While making friends along the way is a fine thing, it is not why Wookieepedia is here. We've gained a reputation as the best source of Star Wars information anywhere. We can't let that fact slip by us. New users need to realize that they need to be ready to obey the policies and do plain hard work. Most of the productive users that are here now I'm sure could attest to having difficulties when they first joined. I know I did. We didn't let that stop us, though. New users need to realize that while we'll try to help them learn, we won't cater to them. They'll have to learn and follow the rules. If a new user truly wants to learn and become a productive editor, they should seek help from an established and trusted editor. However, they need to be ready to adjust to the proper rules on Wookieepedia, not thinking that they can change Wookieepedia to fit their own laziness. New users shouldn't come here expecting soft treatment. Wookieepedia, admittedly, is mostly a hard place. We are that way, though, because rules need to be enforced in order to have a great Wiki. Basically, we'll try to help new users, but they need to be willing to put their nose to the grind and work hard to be a part of this great Star Wars site.—Cal Jedi ^{(Personal Comm Channel)} 20:49, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
• I was hoping for slightly... more encouraging quotes. Not really eager to tell new users that they're not important and that they should shape up and get in line. Menkooroo (talk) 20:57, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
• Just like they say in real estate "Location Location Location", here it is "Sourcing Sourcing Sourcing". See this page to see how and what we consider good sourcing. It is vitally important for additions to the Wook to be properly sources. The SW universe is wide and while you might add something that isn't on here, it has to be properly sources so others can confirm it and make sure it's not Fanon and it's canon. <-Omicron^{(Leave a message at the BEEP!)} 20:57, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
• Also, don't take your edit being reverted personally. While it might seem malicious, most if not all of our regular contributors don't do it out of spite. Look at the edit summary and see why the edit was reverted. If its not there, feel free to leave a message on the reverter's talk page. I know I always try to leave an edit summary explaining why I did what I did, and will respond if the person leaves me a message.<-Omicron^{(Leave a message at the BEEP!)} 21:06, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
• I honestly learned the hard way. There is no "easy way" to learn everything in one swift blog post or detailing everything via the new user's talk page, unless it is a warning. The {{W}} does help, as well as pointing out this, but since we concentrate on writing and comprehensiveness, that needs to come down to the knowledge of the new user. We're not an English class if they do not use proper grammar, ect. JangFett ^(Talk) 20:59, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
• I didn't mean for warnings to be the point of this, sorry. Another story then. I learned how to write articles by reading. I didn't put out a status article for a full year after I joined, though that was also because Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic kept me busy, and that was a good thing. I read and washed myself in Star Wars lore, which has eventually manifested itself as a hundred Comprehensive Articles on silliness, which became my favorite parts of Star Wars during my—well, let's call it was—studies. Don't be afraid of spoilers for things you will likely never read. They are everywhere and you'll not be good at avoiding them until you're familiar with the majority of the material anyway. That Mara Jade married Luke Skywalker was my first spoiler like that, which was from before I joined the Wook actually and right after finishing the Thrawn Trilogy, and it was pretty much the last I cared greatly about because I realized even names are going to spoil (She is Mara Jade Skywalker). Furthermore, if you read through our collection of Featured and Good Articles, you'll become familiar with our policies and seeing examples will help you understand and get a feel for how the rules detailed in the Manual of Style and Layout Guide are handled by the experienced users. They'll be second nature once you've been seeing them in practice for a month or two. NaruHina ^Talk 21:19, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

• If I understand what you're looking for, here are my tips: 1) The most important thing you can learn by starting out is how to properly source anything you write. All the other policies can be learned as you go. But I believe the sourcing is the most important you can learn. 2) Pick a specific topic and become an expert on it. That way when editing you know what you're talking about and your work will be less likely to come across as gibberish. For example, I believe I can honestly say I'm an expert on the CSF and related articles. Ask me about the history of the Sith or Han Solo's bio... eh. But anything I write on CSF I know what I'm talking about which allows me to write better. New users who just start editing all over the place quickly get into trouble. Find your nook, and build from there. 3) Again, before editing: read! Specifically FA, GA, and CA articles. Click on the EDIT but don't change anything, just look, see how they are put together. Figure out what makes a good article everything from grammar to style. This will help when you begin to add to articles. 4) Use your page to experiment, a lot! Copy everything from infoboxes to references and play with them, until you get comfortable with all the different functions. 5) You don't have to write massive articles to start out with, it can be extremely trying. I know, my first article was CSF and that was a year long plus migraine! Start small, build a reputation as I stated in my second suggestion. 6) Don't give up, yes, editing can be frustrating and so on but everyone makes mistakes. I always had a problem with arguing over what is considered to be original research (Jonjedigrandmaster would know :p but I've learned. Having disagreements is also not the end of the world. But don't just go charging in. Better to hold back from making comments on anything until you're sure you can honestly add something. And read what people are saying. I wish I had done that from the start. 7) Last but not least, remember that while, yes, you can have fun, but this is also hard/serious work. Your are writing about one of the most awesome topics ever for others to read and enjoy and Wookieepedia reaches for a high standard. Always be sure you are only adding to raise that standard and not bring it down. Coruscantfan ^(Talk) 21:34, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

• The way I would sum up my Wookieepedia philosophy is with three rules:

1. Find an article from a source that you own/like that needs improvement and go for it.
2. Listen to the suggestions of others to make yourself a better editor.
3. Above all, remember that you should be here because you enjoy it. If you start becoming irritated, it's time to take a little time off. Return when you feel calmer.

• These three statements sum up how I have gone about my editing. The third rule was especially important early on because at times it felt like I couldn't do anything properly. Then the second rule came into play: I looked at what was changed and then strived to do better in that area. I started out filling in redlinks for random things from Star Wars Roleplaying articles and books. Everyone can have a niche where they can contribute.--Exiled Jedi (Greetings) 00:39, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
• Well, when I started out, I lurked for a bit, doing minor editing. I observed how pages were formatted by opening them and simply looking at them. Mostly, I just did minor edits. I corrected spelling and grammar. If I saw obvious vandalism, I would undo it, but for the most part... I did minor edits. If I had a question, I'd hunt down whoever was active on the RCs and bother them. I think the biggest thing that users can do to get comfortable is start small. Don't tackle major article writing yet; just roam around and edit whatever needs to be edited. And while you're editing, observe how the pages are put together and how things are written. I learned more from observation than I did from reading the policies. I learned more by getting in there, staring at the guts of a page, and getting my hands dirty. Policies say how things work, editing shows you how things work.

That said, be bold! Once you feel comfortable and have a basic gist down of how things work, then start joining in on some projects. Again, I advise to start small. Sure, we all want to write FAs. But, we also need to learn how to walk before we can run. Start on some CAs, some small GAs, and work your way up. If you want to tinker with an FA, look for one that is up for review. See what needs to be done to preserve its Featured status and if you feel that you are up to the challenge, then go for it! It may take a while, it may be a cake walk, but in the end, you will have a Featured Article under your belt.

Also, if you can, venture into the IRC and get to know your fellow Wookieepedians. It doesn't matter how many edits you have, come on in! I promise not to bite. :) Trak Nar ^{Ramble on} 07:37, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

• I'd say… Don't forget why you're doing this, don't lose your love for Star Wars, because editing should be fun. It betters your experiences with writing, grammar, and overall skills. To this day, many users and I are persevering with writing articles and editing on Wookieepedia because it is fun and worthwhile. Some people say it's not, but don't let that bother you. When writing articles and nomination them, think of objections as constructive criticism, because that's what it is. Not one editor on here is so perfect that they never get an objection, and not one editor on here is so perfect where they never have to learn how to do things, and do them properly. Never think that your good contributions are too small.—Jedi Kasra ("Indeed.") 14:27, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Heck, I was blocked at the very get-go because I couldn't even figure out how to check my messages which were warning me about adding categories. Now I have numerous status articles and have made Wookieepedian of the Month. I got upset with admins often when I was starting out. Everything was just so complicated and frustrating. But I worked through it. I paid attention to how things were coded, and after a (great) while I started to catch on. I eventually became able to create my own templates using coding from existing ones and simply editing the areas that I needed to. What made my struggle even more difficult, however, was the fact that I was working to improve a section of the wiki no one had really cared about since...ever: real world music. It was by no means easy, but if you can learn from the knowledge and experience of others, you will go a long way. Be smarter than I was and read the wiki's main policies before you ever get started. Yeah, they're boring, but they would've made my time here more productive had I read them at the beginning instead of half-way through. And don't be afraid to get involved in the Featured/Good/Comprehensive article processes once you feel you have an idea of how things work. You probably won't have a nomination go nearly as bad as my first. That article doesn't even exist on Wookieepedia anymore. :P So, in essence, hang tight and fight the good fight, and we all want to see YOU on Wookieepedia very soon. ;) MasterFred^(Whatever) 14:42, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

ClarificationEdit

I think I need to clarify this. I'm not looking to give lectures on the rules and why they should be obeyed. I'm looking for encouragement about how new users can overcome some of the common difficulties associated with starting out here. I'm hoping to entice new users to join, not to scare them. Omicron's second message above is a fantastic example in terms of both content and length --- does that make sense? Menkooroo (talk) 21:04, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

• (commenting on your comment prior to edit conflict) Which is exactly what I commented on. :P Pretty much, everyone new is a noob and needs to have a feel for the wiki. A blog post might help, but at the end, learning everything and seeing what we do is a process. If you try and entice others to join, the process will be the same pretty much. JangFett ^(Talk) 21:10, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
• In that case... Don't just jump in. Watch and learn first. Then start small. I've been here for almost six years and I'm still simply adding links and categories to articles. Find what isn't being done or needs more doing and do it. Karohalva (talk) 21:50, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

You want sound bites?

• "Make it a hobby, not a lifestyle: Don't invest so much of yourself in your work that you have to go sulk in the corner or lash out in rage when Culator an administrator scolds you."
• "It's a chalkboard, not a stone tablet: The edit box says your contributions will be mercilessly edited, and it's not kidding. Don't be surprised, and don't take it personally."

That kind of thing? -- Darth Culator ^(Talk) 22:29, July 27, 2012 (UTC)

• Find something that interests you, and work on that. Don't write because you feel like you have to, and don't nominate things because you feel like you should. Work at your own pace, work on your own projects, and don't take this place very seriously. Nobody's getting payed, so don't sweat the small stuff, even if other users make you feel like it's big stuff. And most importantly, start small. Don't join thinking you'll be the one to write Palpatine's FA. Instead, think about being the one who brings Umbaran blaster rifle to comprehensive status, or Jeelg to good status. Once you feel comfortable with that amount of work, feel free to move onward and upward, or realize that you're more of an editor than a writer. Darth Trayus^{(Trayus Academy)} 07:51, July 28, 2012 (UTC)
• Sound bites, then...

Be bold and come join us on IRC! Get to know your fellow editors, come talk with us, joke with us, and edit with us. After all, you're not editing alone. Don't be shy, come join us on IRC. There, you can ask questions and get answers quickly. You'll also discover that not all the administrators are inherently evil. I promise not to bite. :) Trak Nar ^{Ramble on} 07:59, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

Trak is right! 1358 ^(Talk) 14:46, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

This whole idea is great. Needs to be highly visble on the main page. We're already losing too many potential editors because of incidents such as this. 123.211.185.206 04:39, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Little incidents like the Adi Gallia talkpage dispute "kill off" potential editors and contributors. We can't afford to lose people to things like that. 501st dogma^(talk) 21:48, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

I'm done also. Being accused of sockpuppetry is the last straw. Hope you're happy Gethralkin. Goodbye, Wookieepedia. Jartka'irn (talk) 11:42, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way. If you feel that you are being mistreated, contacting an admin is usually the best method instead of engaging in a conversation with the user in question. You can also contact an admin via e-mail or IRC if you want it done more privately. 1358 ^(Talk) 12:31, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Seconded. I was actually kind of pleased to see a lot of the work Jarka was doing. But it's easy for the negative to outweigh the positive. Sometimes we tend to focus too much on "fixing" the mistakes of new editors rather than telling them how to do things better. I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else. ~Savage 13:03, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

I also am not happy over the reaction to the constructive criticism given by Savagebob, Jangfett, myself, and others concerning edits and reverts being conducted by Jart. All kindly advice given to him was archived by him as soon as he got it so that it was not visible on his Talk Page. After refusing to make adjustments on his own, others had to revert/fix the articles themselves. He is on record as a known sock-puppeteer, so when a suspicious anonymous post calling for my ban—especially since it was made seconds after the creation of a Talk Page he made—I asked it be checked for sock-puppetry. Jart is not a new editor, and despite many good edits he contributed, he is known for making personal attacks and edit warring. He also is a major antagonistic voice in the Adi Gallia discussion that was mentioned above, in which admins needed to step in and halt the argument. If that and his rants and battles against those trying to help him are what we can expect from him and others like him, then perhaps we are better off without those haughty, prideful attitudes. —Gethralkin^Hyperwave 10:29, September 20, 2012 (UTC)

• That was not at all necessary. He already stated his intentions to leave. Please let it be and do not continue to slander his character. Menkooroo (talk) 11:20, September 20, 2012 (UTC)

• PLEASE DELETE MY PROFILE and everything associated I'm sick of being harassed. I will not be back as already stated. Gethralkin's continued harassment has forever tarnished my view of star wars fandom. Alternatively please block my account so others cannot log in and continue his said sockpuppetry and fuel his desire to continue this argument long after I'm gone and his continued delusions of grandeur. See here User:Gethralkin Jartka'irn (talk) 11:31, September 20, 2012 (UTC)

• I had no intention of slandering anyone. I was answering the claim directed toward me that I made baseless accusations. I merely reported suspicious activity that correlated with prior similar behavior, and whether it was him or not, I am satisfied that the admins are looking into the scurrilous activity, whoever it was. Was my reply necessary? On reflection I guess not, and it was a bit blunt so sorry about that. Jart, I am sorry that you feel that way. I actually appreciated the quality edits that you contributed and stated as much. I also tried to communicate with you by leaving you messages explaining my editing activities. I also am able to admit to mistakes and acknowledged being wrong (and reverted/repaired the editing I made). On that side note you brought up, I am not delusional by administrating an official website for a Star Wars game and authoring content for it—linked examples of playing surfaces that I contributed to the game can be found here, for instance. —Gethralkin^Hyperwave 18:26, September 20, 2012 (UTC)

• As to what to do to encourage new editors, I say that if they are intensely interested in article creation, they should be strongly encouraged to use the Sandbox, or create a practice subpage to their User page, to practice before building whole articles. —Gethralkin^Hyperwave 10:31, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
  • That would be ideal. But if they do decide to dabble in article space, I think we often take it out on them pretty harshly. It's good practice that for every revert made on a new editor, that a kindly worded message be placed on their personal talk page to explain what they did wrong and how they could have done it better. Instead, we too often assume that the edit summary is sufficient to this task, but that's not at all self-evident to a new editor. ~Savage 11:55, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
    • Complete agreement from me. Menkooroo (talk) 12:01, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
      • I agree with Bob. Though, I don't think we need to encourage users to start in the sandbox or user space, though it would be nice if they tested there to work things out. I think we should be lowering the barriers for editors, and people are for more likely to get involved if they get to create an actual article from the beginning. I've said this before, but we are way too (if you'll forgive the Wikipedia-ism) BITE-y and I know I'm as guilty as anyone of it, but we can't expect users to have read all of our vast number of policies and consensus tracks before they edit, we'd have no new users! :P So, a kindly worded message explaining what can be improved and why with a few links to pages they can find out more is far better. I'd also say we're a bit too quick to revert and rollback users rather than seeing if the edit can simply be improved, which is far less shocking to a new user. Of course, there are times when people may simply not be suited to editing on our encyclopedia, but most of the time, they just need some guidance. Cheers, grunny@wookieepedia:~$ 13:44, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
        • Yes, indeed. Bob's point is very good. I believe that the edit summary is hardly looked at by new users anyway. I try to remember to leave a note on the user's Talk Page. Most of the time, the user's edits weren't malicious and, at the most, was an attempt to learn how this huge Wookiee works. I don't know if my intent came across correctly (I was up rather early when I wrote it), but by stating "strongly encouraging," I meant that it should be more of an invitation to use the Sandbox. Even, perhaps, a tutorial can be put together to help a new one to "learn the ropes" in the sandbox, with a completion of the tutorial actually getting the new user to edit an actual article. As for reverting without notice, I agree that explaining in detail (however small) is decent to do. I also believe that a note after a revert is probably a good policy move to make to ensure that anyone reverting an article be required to discuss the reasons for the revert. This would ideally invite reasonable discussion between editors (kept civil, of course) and would help to curb edit warring. —Gethralkin^Hyperwave 18:26, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
• What would you guys think about de-harshifying some of our warning templates? {{FanonLimit}} is an example of one that I think is a little much, with its big negative sign and its warning that you might be blocked. Adding fanon to one's userpage is a victimless crime that probably warrants a friendlier reminder not to do. Menkooroo (talk) 23:59, September 20, 2012 (UTC)
  • I do remember that "fanon limit" template, since it was one of my first interaction with the admins when I arrived on the Wook six years ago. And yes, I used to think it was kind of harsh. Although I now fully understand why such a policy exist, I just couldn't understand what was wrong with my user page at the time. I was warned twice about it, and, in the end of the day, I simply erased everything. --LelalMekha (talk) 20:37, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
• Menkooroo, to shortly express what I think as one of the hardest obstacles for new editors here is indeed often the tone how things are presented to them, not what is presented. Kind of "if you're not one of us already, get out" type thing sometimes, if not that harsh. (: – Tm_T@Wookieepedia:~$ 20:05, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
  • The thing is, it is sometimes that harsh. That's something I think we all need to work on. De-harshifying some of the warning templates is a very, very, very partial solution; does anyone have any other ideas? Menkooroo (talk) 04:12, September 24, 2012 (UTC)
    • What about simply writing the warning yourself, rather than using a template? Templates are rather generic, and don't quite focus on what exactly the user is doing wrong. Writing the warning yourself could get the point over in a gentler way, without all the red warning signs. I know this takes more time, but it could work. 501st dogma^(talk) 20:32, September 24, 2012 (UTC)
      • I always (unless the template speaks for itself in full) try to add a note when leaving a template to explain the reason for having left it. I also try to remember to mention that the edit(s) warranting the template may not have been intentional, and that whatever certain policy (or forum) principles (that I provide links to) will help the new user to understand the goals here. —Gethralkin^Hyperwave 16:14, September 25, 2012 (UTC)