Forums > Senate Hall > SH:Possible Merge between "Jedi" and "Jedi Order"

As suggested by Brandon Rhea, I have moved this question to the Senate Hall so that we can hopefully have a comprehensive conversation regarding a possible merger between the Jedi and Jedi Order pages.

This question was asked months ago on the Jedi article's talk page that no one responded to, but why are there separate articles for "Jedi" and "Jedi Order"? No distinction is made between the "Sith" and "Sith Order." Most of the information in the "Jedi" article can easily be merged into the "Jedi Order" page. I suppose one might argue that there was no "Jedi Order" after Order 66, just a few "Jedi" survivors. However, Luke Skywalker's databank article lists "Jedi Order" among his affiliations, thereby confirming that the Jedi Order never fully died out during the Imperial Era in spite of the Sith's efforts. Without a canon source to confirm that "Jedi" and "Jedi Order" are separate, I believe that the former should be merged into the latter's page.

Although Jedi/Legends and Jedi Order/Legends are separate articles, it should be noted that there was more than one Jedi organization in the Legends continuity i.e. New Jedi Order. In canon there has only been one Jedi Order and it is synonymous with "Jedi" as "Sith" is with "Sith Order." JRT2010 (talk) 06:05, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

  • Ahsoka leaves the Jedi Order but is still referred to as a Jedi isn't she? I'd argue that that's evidence of an individual being able to be a Jedi without being a member of the order, meaning that they're separate concepts deserving of separate pages. Ayrehead02 (talk) 17:18, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
    • Ahsoka herself says "I'm no Jedi." The Databank doesn't treat the "Jedi" and "Jedi Order" as separate concepts; they're synonymous, like "Sith" and "Sith Order." "Jedi" and "Sith" can be used to refer to individual members of the orders, and they can be the short forms of the names "Jedi Order" and "Sith Order." If we have "Sith" and "Sith Order" under one page, then it seems reasonable to do the same for "Jedi" and "Jedi Order." JRT2010 (talk) 17:44, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
      • So the real question is: "What is a Jedi?" Follow-on questions: Is any Force user a Jedi? Is a Sith a Jedi? Are Jedi only those who are part of the Jedi Order or not? Is somebody who follows the rules/teachings of the Jedi Order, but not officially part of the Jedi Order, considered to be a Jedi? I don't have any source examples to cite (nor have I even read either of the articles recently); I'm just throwing these thought exercises out there. - Esjs (Talk to me) 20:47, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

My initial reaction would be that the Jedi Order is an organization whereas Jei are members of the organization. We wouldn't merge stormtrooper with Stormtrooper Corps either. 1358 (Talk) 20:58, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

  • Fair enough. I still kind of lean towards merging the articles since the Sith page covers both the members and the organization they belong to, but I see your point. However, if we regard the Jedi page as referring to members of the Jedi Order rather than a group or organization, than shouldn't the affiliation fields in Ezra Bridger and Rey's infobox list Jedi Order and not merely Jedi, since that page is about members of the organization, not the organization itself. Granted, Ezra and Rey became Jedi in a time when the Jedi Order was on the brink of extinction, but the order was never fully destroyed as long as even a single Jedi lived. As Snoke said, as long as Luke Skywalker lived, the seed of the Jedi Order still lived. Besides, a stormtrooper character (ex: TK-422) would have Stormtrooper Corps listed in the affiliation section of their infobox, not stormtrooper. JRT2010 (talk) 22:01, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
  • Or to frame in real-world terms: a 'practicing Catholic' is not 'the Catholic Church.' — DigiFluid(Whine here) 23:06, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
    • Exactly. He or she is a member of the Church, not the Church itself. Therefore, it seems more fitting to list Jedi Order, not Jedi in the infoboxes of Ezra Bridger and Rey, as one is about an organization and the other is about the members of that organization. JRT2010 (talk) 23:50, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
      • I'd tend to agree, although I'm not sure if the Jedi Order even existed as an organization during Ezra's and Rey's "membership". 1358 (Talk) 00:26, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
        • I guess if we aren't listing Jedi in the infoboxes then we shouldn't list anything, as Ecks said the Jedi Order wasn't really an organization at those points so it doesn't make sense for Rey and Ezra to have it listed --Lewisr (talk) 00:32, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
          • I think for Rey, since Luke talks about how he intends to end the Jedi Order and then goes on to say that Rey, not Luke, is the last Jedi, we can safely list her as a member of the Jedi Order because it still existed in Episode VIII. But I'd agree that Ezra gets a bit tricky. Organizationally there was no Jedi Order from Episode III until after Episode VI, until Luke brought it back. Ezra's Databank, for example, does not list him as being affiliated with the Jedi Order. The Jedi Order Databank page also says that the Order was "eradicated" in Episode III. So for Ezra it might be safer to leave him listed just as a Jedi. And I would keep that in his infobox. It's helpful for readers. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 00:34, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
            • Fair enough, that makes sense --Lewisr (talk) 00:49, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree that it's more complicated in Ezra's case, but I think it can be argued that as long as even one Jedi lives, the Jedi Order continues to live through them. Snoke lowkey said as much: "Skywalker lives. The seed of the Jedi Order lives." Later he highkey said it again: "We will give him and the Jedi Order the death he desires." So while the Jedi Order may not have existed in an organizational sense post-Order 66, from the perspective of both Luke and Snoke the Jedi Order still existed through any surviving Jedi. This would include Ezra, as he is a Jedi. If Episode VIII indicated anything, it's that the Jedi Order will not end until the last Jedi dies. JRT2010 (talk) 07:33, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
    • I'd be on board for that interpretation. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 16:40, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
      • It's a fine interpretation, but it's speculative and based on the words of a character with a demonstrated willingness to manipulate others to get them to do what he wants. We're not in the business of speculating, but of reporting what canon sources say. The canon databank says the Jedi Order ended in Episode III. That's what we must go by unless some other canon source explicitly overturns it. Asithol (talk) 17:13, June 19, 2018 (UTC)
        • According to Luke Skywalker's biography gallery in the Databank, "Luke was determined to finally burn the Jedi library and bring the Jedi Order to an end — but once again couldn't bring himself to take this final step." So while the Order was eradicated by Order 66, as the Databank states, it was revived and continues to exist, again according to the Databank. JRT2010 (talk) 21:20, June 19, 2018 (UTC)
          • That would only apply to Luke and post Ep VI members, but Ezra is not part of the Order.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 22:39, June 19, 2018 (UTC)
            • I agree^. Also, I noticed that we have Sith but no Sith Order? Wouldn't the same apply to them?--Vitus InfinitusTalk 00:58, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
              • I also want to say that I agree that they should not be merged. We have Jedi organizations that may or may not be specifically attached to the Jedi Order itself, such as Jedi pilgrims and Jedi Crusaders, which are groups made of up Jedi but haven't been established as part of the Jedi Order.--Vitus InfinitusTalk 01:00, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
  • Given that Kanan Jarrus was knighted in Shroud of Darkness, "you are what I was once, a knight of the Jedi Order," and both Kanan and Ezra communicated with Yoda, a case could be made that Ezra represented and was part of the Jedi Order because Kanan became a knight within the Jedi Order and trained Ezra as his padawan. A better example of an individual who would be a Jedi and not part of the Jedi Order would be Ferren Barr. He was a padawan, and took the title of Jedi Master himself after Order 66. That, to me at least, doesn't qualify him to represent the Jedi Order after the events of Episode III. How much different is Ezra than Luke? If the Jedi Order in total was destroyed and was no more after Episode III, then Luke's status as a member of the Jedi Order is questionable. He would be a Jedi for sure, but won't represent the Jedi Order. I believe Luke and Ezra's status as part of the Jedi Order are tied, we can't add one in and not the other.--Vitus InfinitusTalk 03:59, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
    • Thank you for pointing out what The Grand Inquisitor said when Kanan was knighted. Based on that dialogue, I think it's safe to conclude that the Jedi Order still existed in some sense through its surviving members. Therefore, Ezra could stay listed as a member of the Jedi Order, as you said. Regarding the Sith, I think we should have a separate article for the Sith Order given that we have the pages Jedi and Jedi Order. I started this conversation because I believed that the aforementioned pages should be merged since the Sith article covers both the order and its members, but if we're going to keep Jedi and Jedi Order as separate pages, then I think there should be two pages for the Sith: one for members and one for the order itself. JRT2010 (talk) 11:27, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
      • Agreed. Someone that comes to mind who is a Sith but no longer part of the Sith Order, in my opinion, could be Maul. In Rebels, he revealed that he dropped the "Darth" part of his name. His actions following Episode I don't represent the Sith Order, but do represent that he was still a Sith. We have Sith/Legends and Order of the Sith Lords in Legends but in canon we only have Sith. There should be a Sith Order as well. There are also organizations such as the Sith armada that are Sith entities, but may not be of the Sith Order itself. Savage Opress was trained as a Sith, but is not part of the Order, at least not after he betrayed Dooku.--Vitus InfinitusTalk 13:08, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
        • I'm inclined to agree given that the Sith armada could be a Sith organization that is separate from the Order itself, but I'm not sure if we should use Darth Maul as an example of a Sith existing outside of the Sith Order. Was he still technically still a Sith after Darth Sidious replaced him with Darth Tyranus? In Maul's view, yes. Not so much in Sidious' eyes, however. Remember, the first and only reality of the Sith. There can only be two, and you are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced. Based on this dialogue, it seems that Sidious didn't just cast Maul out of the Sith Order—he doesn't consider him a Sith at all, but rather a rival or pretender to the name of Sith. Maul might be more comparable to Ahsoka Tano, someone who was a Jedi until she was expelled from the Jedi Order. In that regard, it could be said that Maul was a Sith until his place in the Sith Order was given to a new Sith Lord. JRT2010 (talk) 14:11, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
          • I don't believe Maul stopped being a Sith after he was cast out of the Order by Sidious, but I believe that's a different conversation. There are other individuals that are allied with Sith but may not be allied with the Order itself. For example Momin and Exim Panshard, so it would be appropriate to have Sith and Sith Order, and Jedi and Jedi Order. And to sum up my thoughts, I believe that Ezra and Rey should be considered as being part of the Jedi Order.--Vitus InfinitusTalk 14:26, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
  • Unless anyone else would like to add to the conversation, I'd like to change Ezra's affiliation from merely Jedi to Jedi Order, which is backed up by the dialogue from Rebels that Vitus provided. JRT2010 (talk) 13:59, June 22, 2018 (UTC)
    • While I agree with Vitus's assessment that "a case could be made that Ezra represented and was part of the Jedi Order," I must reiterate that our role is to report what sources document. Extrapolation such as that is appropriate for the Behind the scenes section but not the article or infobox. The prevailing view in this thread is that there is a distinction between a Jedi and a member of the Jedi Order; we may as well honor that distinction by classifying individuals in the way that most closely reflects what canon sources tell us. Asithol (talk) 00:26, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
      • The view that there is a distinction between a Jedi and a member of the Jedi Order is also an assumption on our part. We've only assumed that Jedi pilgrims and Jedi Crusaders are separate from the Order because currently we just don't know. In canon, as far as I know at least, there is no distinction between a Jedi and a member of the Order. A Jedi is by definition a member of the Jedi Order, as User:Xd1358 said. Ahsoka is an example of this, as she herself stopped considering herself a Jedi after being expelled from the Jedi Order. JRT2010 (talk) 03:46, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
        • Both things then are an assumption and we shouldn't use assumptions. Jedi Order was said to be dissolved during the events of Episode III, Ezra in no part is a member of the Jedi Order and no source backs up that its true. Yes it could be that in a sense that he was part of the Jedi Order, but there's not an official claim to back it up. --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 03:54, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
          • I have to disagree about Ezra. As Vitus pointed out, the exact wording used during the knighting of Ezra's Master, Kanan Jarrus means we shouldn't consider the Jedi Order dead and gone after Episode III. The Grand Inquisitor specifically said, "you are what I was once, a knight of the Jedi Order." He was speaking in the present tense, and therefore referred to the Jedi Order as an institution that still existed. JRT2010 (talk) 04:11, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
            • A Force vision of a dead guy it ain't the best confirmation. Yes the Temple exist, and the force vision of the Inquisitor exists, but it feels you guys are taking too literally the words. Its not talking about the Jedi Order as an organization in the galaxy, he's talking to Kanan and boost his confidence as a Jedi Knight so he could teach Ezra correctly saying that he's like him before what happened--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 04:20, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
              • That's what we tend to do around here, take what the sources say "literally." Otherwise, we'd be making all sorts of interpretations and what not. If we're going to take what the databank states literally, that the Order was "eradicated," then we have to do the same for other canon sources such as the Rebels episode in which the Inquisitor specifically refers to the Jedi Order in the present tense. JRT2010 (talk) 04:31, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
                • Yes we take them literally, we they're sources like the databank, books, when it comes from dialogue there's always the From a certain point of view thing. The episode isn't talking about the state of the galaxy, is about Kanan building confidence that he can serve Ezra. --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 04:37, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
  • "Building up Kanan's confidence" is your interpretation of that scene. You may well be right, but you're still reading into the Inquisitor's motives, which of course is a point of view. Anyway, the Databank entry for the episode Shroud of Darkness (slide #26, left to right) states:
[The guard raises his weapon, one last time] …and knights Kanan. He is now a Jedi. The Temple Guard removes his mask, revealing himself to be the Grand Inquisitor. "You are now what I once was," the Grand Inquisitor says. "A Knight of the Jedi Order."

As you said, we take the wording in sources literally, and that databank image caption is a canon source. JRT2010 (talk) 05:03, June 25, 2018 (UTC)

    • Wouldn't be a direct confirmation, it would create a conflicting sources. But still that doesn't apply to Ezra, all of that its mentioned to Kanan, Ezra wasn't initiated or told that he was a Padawan or a member of the Jedi Order. As far it would be unofficially affiliated. Ezra isn't part of the Order, the captaion is not for him, the source is not for him. And that's an episode guide not a databank entry, still valid, but they're not usually used as a source--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 05:10, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
      • Lol As long as it still counts… There is something else that's interesting about the caption though. The part where it states "[Kanan] is now a Jedi," which leads into "A Knight of the Jedi Order." The source is not making a distinction between a Jedi and a member of the Order. If anything, it backs up the original reason for this discussion, the argument that a Jedi is by definition a member of the Jedi Order. We can agree that Ezra is in fact a Jedi, given that he is referred to as such in various sources. True, we have yet to find a source specifically referring to him as a member of the Jedi Order, but he is a Jedi nonetheless and so far we have no canon source specifcally confirming that a distinction exists between a Jedi and a member of the Order. JRT2010 (talk) 05:23, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
        • Moreover, Ezra is a Padawan. He is explicitedly referred to as such in the databank such as here. It's one thing to debate whether there is or isn't a distinction between a Jedi and a member of the Jedi Order, but I don't think we should start assuming that the rank of Padawan exists outside of the Order. JRT2010 (talk) 05:31, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
          • OK, so if a Padawan is a part of the Jedi Order but is not yet a Jedi (knight), then Jedi and Jedi Order are not synonymous, right? If the Jedi Order has ranks which include Padawan, Knight, and Master, and a Padawan is not a Jedi, then not all members of the Jedi Order are Jedi. - Esjs (Talk to me) 20:17, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
            • Multiple sources have said the Jedi Order was destroyed and that Luke rebuilt the Order. If Ezra is referred to as a Jedi when there is no Jedi Order, it means you can be a Jedi and not be a member of the Jedi Order --Lewisr (talk) 20:26, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
              • Yet the episode guide for Shroud of Darkness refers to Kanan becoming a Knight of the Jedi Order, and Ezra is his Padawan so his situation isn't so different from Luke Skywalker's, as Vitus pointed out. I don't know how else to phrase this without it sounding like an interpretation, but the fact that a canon source (i.e. episode guide) explicitly refers to the Jedi Order existing in the present tense, Post-Order 66/Dark Times era, means the Jedi Order still existed in some capacity. At the very least, we shouldn't discount it as a credible source. We've made bigger assumptions in the past due to limited information. In a way, we're already going on the assumption that Jedi Crusaders and Jedi pilgrims are not affiliated with the Jedi Order. In canon, at least as far as I can tell, anything with the word "Jedi" in it counts as part of the Jedi/Jedi Order, technically even a Padawan since Ahsoka Tano's Databank entry lists Jedi Order as an affiliation of hers. JRT2010 (talk) 20:38, June 25, 2018 (UTC)
                • Various sources state that Luke Skywalker was part of the Jedi Order, and yet, as many are pointing out in this thread, is that the Jedi Order was destroyed in Episode III. Thus Ezra can't be a member of such order. That, in my opinion is erroneous. If Luke is confirmed to be a member of the Jedi Order, that clearly suggests that the Order was not destroyed in Episode III. Shroud of Darkness is also clear on this matter. Kanan, a Jedi who had been a padawan since Order 66, was made a Jedi Knight of the Jedi Order in the Lothal Jedi Temple, which is another confirmation that the Order was still active. Because Ezra is confirmed to be Kanan's padawan, and Kanan is a confirmed Jedi Knight, then Ezra has to be considered as a member of the Order. Just like Rey is considered a member of the Order, and just like Luke is considered a member. And although Luke set out to rebuild the Jedi Order, that doesn't necessarily dictate that he was recreating it. He was considered a member of the Order in Return of the Jedi after he defeated his father, before he set out to rebuild the Order with new students.--Vitus InfinitusTalk 13:50, June 26, 2018 (UTC)
                  • So are we going to say that the Jedi Order was still in existence through Luke between Episodes 4 and 5 then? For your point on Ahsoka JRT2010, Ahsoka was very clearly affiliated with the Jedi Order hence why its listed --Lewisr (talk) 14:14, June 26, 2018 (UTC)
  • I would say that the Order was destroyed in 19 BBY, but through some form was active by the events of Shroud of Darkness. In Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith 16: Burning Seas, Part IV, Ferren Barr is revealed to be a padawan, and was not able to progress to Knight or Master because no one could bring him up. This was not the case for Ezra and Kanan. Kanan was elevated to the rank of Knight of the Jedi Order and Ezra remained his padawan. As a governing organization, the Order was gone. But as an entity of the Force or what have you, it may not have been. It's all complicated so it's good that we're talking about this. Also, it was brought up during this thread on whether to have a Sith and Sith Order page, just like we have a Jedi and Jedi Order thread. How do you guys feel about it? I'd say if we keep Jedi and Jedi Order separate, then we should do the same for Sith and Sith Order, and vice versa.--Vitus InfinitusTalk 16:57, June 26, 2018 (UTC)
    • If we make a new page for the Sith, do we treat the current one as a members page or Order page? If we create an Order page, what would we call it? Some people considered renaming the current Sith page "Sith Order" but it was argued that it should remain "Sith" since that is the Order's most commonly used name. JRT2010 (talk) 18:40, June 26, 2018 (UTC)
      • Wouldn't the current one remain Sith and the new one be named Sith Order? Given how Sith Order has been established in canon material.--Vitus InfinitusTalk 03:26, June 27, 2018 (UTC)
        • I think that would be best, but Sith Order is such a rarely used name. Even on the databank the Order is referred to simply as the Sith. I'm just wondering if someone will make the case for calling the Sith Order page "Sith" given that's its most used name. I'm for it, but do we have a consensus? No one else has really talked about this, mainly because we've been so focused on determining the Jedi Order's status after Episode III. JRT2010 (talk) 04:42, June 27, 2018 (UTC)
          • I suggest that for clarity, the matter of the Sith articles be in a separate discussion. But I note that, in contrast to Wikipedia, here policy unfortunately mandates that we use "the most formal and accurate [name] provided in sources," even though using the commonest name, as you suggest, would be more helpful to readers. Asithol (talk) 21:05, June 28, 2018 (UTC)
  • Regarding the Jedi Order: A databank entry is an omniscient source; a character's line of dialogue is not. If we presumed everything every character said in a canon source is true, we would have to report (to choose the most obvious example) that Darth Vader murdered Anakin Skywalker. Most of the time, we can take characters' words as definitive because they align with omniscient sources. But in this case, omniscient sources tell us the Jedi Order was destroyed in Episode III and rebuilt by Luke. A character can claim otherwise, but a character can also claim he has thirty gunmen waiting aboard the Millennium Falcon. Sometimes people bluff. Asithol (talk) 21:43, June 28, 2018 (UTC)
    • The episode gallery for "Shroud of Darkness" states in two slides, "The Guard raises his weapon, one last time…and knights Kanan. He is now a Jedi." His databank states, "He was a leader among the Ghost crew, a small group of rebels looking to strike back against the Empire, and with the emergence of the Force-sensitive Ezra, once again embraced his identity as a Jedi Knight."--Vitus InfinitusTalk 15:26, June 29, 2018 (UTC)
      • In the accompanying Rebels Recon, here, Henry Gilroy says that "the visions created in the temple are a means of communication for Yoda to instruct and teach the young Jedi. The vision of the Grand Inquisitor is entirely motivated by Yoda who's basically letting Kanan know that he is a Jedi Knight." If Yoda created the visions, if that's what I'm understanding, then we should take the Grand Inquisitor's words into consideration. It doesn't contradict sources that the Order was destroyed, maybe it was just beginning to be rebuilt earlier than we thought and not necessarily by Luke alone.--Vitus InfinitusTalk 15:33, June 29, 2018 (UTC)
        • But we shouldn't consider it to be a beginning of the Order being rebuilt without a source explicitly saying it is, that's us just then guessing and speculating --Lewisr (talk) 15:37, June 29, 2018 (UTC)
          • So should we adjust the approach and add that Jedi Knights and Padawans don't necessarily have to be part of the Order?--Vitus InfinitusTalk 15:39, June 29, 2018 (UTC)
            • Of course, they didn't stop being Padawans and Jedi Knights because the Order was destroyed. They still considered themselves as those, so they didn't necessarily need to be part of the Order --Lewisr (talk) 15:54, June 29, 2018 (UTC)
  • Okay, but if we're not going to consider Ezra Bridger a member of the Jedi Order I suggest we actually not list Jedi in the affiliation field of the infobox. It's just inconsistent with how we treat affiliations in virtually every other article where it lists states, political or military factions, and various other organizations. Jedi is a page about members of the Jedi Order—like clone trooper for the Grand Army of the Republic or stormtrooper for the Stormtrooper Corps—or in Bridger's case, someone who was trained as a Jedi after the Order's fall. Besides, readers will see right in the introductory paragraph that Ezra was a Jedi. JRT2010 (talk) 18:19, June 30, 2018 (UTC)
    • Agreed. I did initially suggest we just not list anything for Ezra --Lewisr (talk) 18:22, June 30, 2018 (UTC)