This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. Advanced Jedi Training Droid 6(Talk to my master) 01:05, February 8, 2015 (UTC)
NOTE: This is not an official vote. This is just a discussion thread to see what the current feelings of the community are.
This is a discussion that I know some people will not want to have, and that some will not take part in, but I feel it is important that we get the ball rolling—even if it's just an initial discussion that doesn't necessarily lead anywhere yet—on the future of how Canon and Legends subpages are set up. I would ask right off the bat, whatever your opinions are, that you please remain civil.
Right now, we have policies in place saying that the Legends page is the default page. That means, for example, Luke Skywalker is the Legends-oriented page for the character, while Canon-only information is to be placed on Luke Skywalker/Canon. That was decided here, by a 2 to 1 margin. At the time, that was probably the right idea, considering the lack of Canon-only pages on the site. However, that vote also contained an important fact:
"At a later date, when the site's coverage of canon subjects is to an extent where they can be showcased, we can reverse the decision and move Legends material to subpages."
Although I wasn't here at the time, there seems to have been an acknowledgement, however reluctant it may have been, that Legends would not remain the default. Nor should it, in my opinion, as it is not official Canon. We need to remain objective, and to do that we can't be weighing Legends in a more prominent way than Canon, whatever the personal feelings of the community may be towards the Canon/Legends split. This is especially important now that Star Wars Rebels has aired, we have multiple comics coming up, 2 books have been released and at least 3 more are on the way, and the new movies are on the horizon. Legends will always be a huge part of Wookieepedia, and will make up the majority of Wookieepedia's content for many, many years, but, for better or for worse, the future of Star Wars is in the official Canon storyline and we need to be prepared for that.
Let me give you an example of a statistic to show how big of an impact Canon will be having over the next few years. After the trailer for The Force Awakens was released a few weeks ago, Wookieepedia's page views shot above 1 million per DAY (before that it was generally between 600,000 and 700,000). Since then, there have been more days above 1 million than not, and even the days where the views have not been over 1 million have still seen over 900,000. On a smaller but no less impressive scale, the page Crossguard lightsaber (which is Legends) saw nearly 300,000 views on November 28th alone. From November 28th to December 2nd, it saw over 594,000 views. (Note: this was before the creation of Kylo Ren's lightsaber.) And that's just from an 88 second trailer. It's pretty clear that people are going to be searching for Canon information as a result of The Force Awakens marketing and eventual release, and even Rebels has let Wookieepedia see an uptick in readers and editors.
The way I see it, there are two ways we can move forward, and I want to see what peoples' thoughts are on these options. The options are as follows:
Make Canon the default. That means that Luke Skywalker would be Canon-only information, while Luke Skywalker/Legends would cover the Legends story of the character. Pretty self-explanatory; it's the inverse of what we're currently doing.
Make Canon AND Legends subpages, and make the main article a disambig. In this option, Luke Skywalker would be a disambiguation page. I envision it as having a bit of information on it, maybe a paragraph of in-inverse content and maybe a brief infobox + a picture, and then it would contain links to Luke Skywalker/Canon and Luke Skywalker/Legends. If we were to add additional tabs, such as Luke Skywalker/Infinities, it would link to those too.
Please share your thoughts in the Discussion section. If you have other suggestions, please feel free to share those as well. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 23:20, December 16, 2014 (UTC)
My preference is option #1. I think option #2 is interesting, but ultimately a weird/confusing user experience. We should assume that the majority of people who are going to be coming to Wookieepedia as a result of major Canon stories, like The Force Awakens, are not going to have much knowledge of Legends and are not going to have much of an understanding or awareness of the Canon/Legends split. That's more of a super fan thing, and I think it's a safe assumption that the nearly 900,000 views on the crossguard lightsaber page, for example, were not from people who landed there with knowledge of what Legends is. So to me, it's important to put Canon front and center as the default page. Option #2 requires some knowledge of what Canon and Legends mean, and we should not assume the majority of the millions of daily views that we will eventually consistently maintain as a result of Canon will be from people who have that knowledge. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 23:20, December 16, 2014 (UTC)
While I believe that Legends should remain the default, I prefer option 1. Perhaps we could get more editors on Canon pages using this strategy. Option 2 is just strange. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 02:24, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
I also prefer Option 1, but Option 2 isn't that strange at all, IMO (despite my reservations based on the reader experience). Marvel Database uses a method similar to this, considering how many versions there are of comic book characters. Check out their Iron Man page, for example, and you'll see it's essentially an image-based disambiguation page. Obviously we'd have far less pages to link to, but if we did go with Option 2, we could eventually grow it if we introduced third or even fourth tabs for additional kinds of content. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 02:27, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
The tab system works in my opinion, though we should maybe start thinking about a third infinites/non-canon tab. Option 2 is strange IMO because we don't currently have enough versions for any character to warrant a list like that at the moment. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 02:40, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
Option 2 would still, presumably, keep the tabs in order to navigate between articles. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 02:46, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
Hmm, interesting. Maybe open on Canon by default, and have a version disambiguation page. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 02:55, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
My concern if we make Canon the default is, how many times will a user search for an article and end up with a measly Canon "stub"? (since Canon articles are still being fleshed out)--Richterbelmont10(come in R2!) 05:16, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
I may be in the minority here, but I would rather have that than give "misleading" (for lack of a better word) information (i.e. thinking that Luke Skywalker fought the Vong, and then watching The Force Awakens and having a totally different story). Wookieepedia is always a work in progress, so any line about when Canon pages are "up to snuff" is going to be completely arbitrary. It would be very easy to always use that as a crutch to avoid making the change. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 05:22, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
I agree. Sometimes it seems the main editors like you are the only editors working on the Canon pages. I say we should put it to another vote. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 05:25, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
I'm sure it will eventually. But this conversation can first be used to get a sense of where the community stands, issues that need to be addressed, etc. Better to do the due diligence before a vote. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 05:26, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps we should have a message about the tab system appear on the homepage. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 05:34, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
About time for this discussion. I'm ready to make the switch. Ideally, we would have made the switch before the trailer hit, but that's in the past. For now, I prefer Option 1 over Option 2; Option 2 is interesting, but we wouldn't be linking to enough pages (as Marvel Database does) to make the extra pages worthwhile. And per Brandon on the statement that showing people Canon stubs is better than showing them a fleshed-out Legends article that is potentially misleading. —MJ—Jedi Council Chambers 05:56, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
Hopefully people are OCD enough that if they see a Canon stub, they will sign on and fix it. I actually love option 1 now. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 06:00, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
If I'm allowed to have an opinion here on the manner not withstanding a supposed lack of edits to this wiki during these times, I will voice mine here now. I support the eventual shift to Canon default, but we will need more Canon articles created. Option 2 sounds interesting, however we don't have nearly the fractionation as compared to comic book continuities so it seems like overkill with disambiguation pages. That noted, we still may be able to utilize the tabs for that sort of breakdown. Option 1 makes sense for the direction we are headed. The "/Canon" moniker makes these new articles appear as if they are secondary in nature and not following suit for what Disney-Lucasfilm has decided. For the last year we have been in a holding pattern waiting for Disney-Lucasfilm's next move. The trailer is the first real change we have seen outside of books and Rebels, which do not actively violate Legends continuity like TFA will. Those new articles created from the 40 seconds of actual footage from the trailer are acting as the flagship of New Canon, yet they do not all have counterparts that exist here already save for stormtrooper (stormtrooper/Canon) and X-wing starfighter (X-wing starfighter/Canon), for example. However, as Brandon noted above, reader interest for these new Canon articles is immensely high given the excitement over TFA. We must take advantage of this. If we shift from labeling the Canon articles as such and simply make them the default, user interest may return to the wiki including an increase in editor activity. The tab system is already there. Let's remove the confusion. Let's give people a reason to add things. Let's do this. -- Riffsyphon1024 07:44, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
Vote Now! Vote Now! Vote Now! In all seriousness, we should make Canon default by the years end. Give people are reason to come back. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 14:05, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
I like the idea of switching to having Canon as the main, and I like Option 1. Option 2 doesn't sit well with me; I think we should try to avoid having people see a disambiguation page if at all possible. ProfessorTofty (talk) 14:30, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
End of the year deadline seems like the right thing to aim for, seeing TFA is a release for next year. I'm curious as to how Option #1 (Which is what I'd support) would work, though. Would everything just have to be painstakingly transferred over by hand? It will be a lot of work either way, as necessary as it is, imo. Maybe I'm thinking a bit to far ahead. --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 19:08, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
My guess is that a fair amount of it could be done by Cade with RoboCade. End of the year is impractical, though. Just from a policy-standpoint, consensus track votes last for 2 weeks, and 2 weeks from today is New Year's Eve. So we're past the point of saying end of the year. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 19:10, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
One problem I see with it is that it requires more work in general. If Legends pages go to /Legends, then it complicates the creation of new Canon pages. For example, let's say, just as a hypothetical example, that a Canon page for Luke Skywalker didn't exist and I wanted to create it. First, Luke Skywalker would have to moved to Luke Skywalker/Legends and all existing links updated to reflect that. Then, after that, the new Luke Skywalker page would be created. Actually, I'm having a bit of a hard time imagining how it's going to work. ProfessorTofty (talk) 19:25, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, end of the year is pretty slim. But you're right Tofty. There's a lot to do in terms of just relinking and redirects. Any bots that can be commissioned to work will have to be around'the'clock venues with Holidays or Vacation time if we even want to get a chunk done by, I'm guessing, the time TFA is actually released. It's starting to boggle my mind, too. I'm starting to wonder if something should've been done before the Tabs were implemented. While it's technically never to late, the Wook could be looking at a lengthy time of grievous disorganization as everything tries to come together. Also, what about Legends articles without /Canon variations, like say, Nebulba. I'm guessing all articles like him would be moved to Nebulba/Legends, then? --Clonehunter(Report your W.M.D.) 20:21, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
There would be no need to move Legends pages without canon equivalents to /Legends subpages, just like we don't require Canon-only subjects like, say, Kanan Jarrus to be called Kanan Jarrus/Canon. The vast majority of pages on Wookieepedia are not going to be affected if we switch to Canon default. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 21:12, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps we'd like to make a decision by January 5th, when Rebels starts back up. Seems like an especially good time to make such a change. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 21:58, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
To speed up the process, I would be happy to help "convert" certain Legends pages into Canon by a careful and selective copy-and-paste of the Legends material to Canon, followed by a rigorous editing of the article to make it Canon-appropriate. I would focus on short Clone Wars articles such as Lyonie, Byph, Pieter, 99, and Darts D'Nar. But I will only do this if some copy-and-pasting will be allowed. I’m not going to do all this work just so that it will be reverted.--Richterbelmont10(come in R2!) 05:42, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
So it seems like there's a general consensus here that switching to Canon as default would be a good idea, even if it creates more work. Though it would have been nice to have some of the regular admins weigh in, since they usually vote on this stuff. Is it time to go ahead and start a Consensus Track? ProfessorTofty (talk) 16:28, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
No, it's not time. 1) I'd like to hear from more people. We've heard from 4-5 tops here. That's nowhere near representative of the current feelings of the community, and a CT is pointless if it's just going to be voted down. 2) There are outstanding technical questions about how it would work. The technical side would need to be figured out first. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 16:30, December 18, 2014 (UTC)
I stood by canon as default in the original vote and I still stand by it today. The Canon répertoire has grown and still growing. Enough that I think this vote could pass. IMO, we need to stop wishing the old EU was back. Let us take what has been given to us and capitalize on it. The new trilogy is less then a year away and it will, and already has, brought a whole plethora of new material; not to mention a new EU. We are in a new era of Star Wars. It's time we put the past in second place and move the present and future up front. Therefore, I endorse option #1 and only option #1. Fe Nite (talk) 21:08, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
We have plenty of Canon subjects to write about if we look in the right places. The time is now. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 21:26, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
As I said in May, "Our first, best destiny is to document for our readers the canon of the Star Wars universe. Even in a world where suddenly we find ourselves with a wealth of non-canon info and a dearth of strictly canon info, our mandate hasn't changed." We should have begun the switchover as soon as the canon announcement was made. As for the numbered options, I also think Option 1 is the correct approach. Unlike Marvel's products, Star Wars doesn't have a number of parallel universes, all equally real. It has a single Canon history and a number of Legends that may or may not accurately reflect that Canon history, depending on decisions of the Story Group and creative team (not to mention a number of Infinities stories and information sources even less relevant to Canon than Legends). Option 1 gives primacy to Canon, where it belongs. jSarek (talk) 01:14, December 23, 2014 (UTC)
So pretty much everyone thinks that Canon articles should be the default pages, and legends eb on the subpages in a unique namespace. And that priority should begiven to canon... okay then. I still think there should be a third sub-page for non-canon. Anything new or old that does not pertain to the old EU (legends) continuity, and the NEU (canon). I would go one further and say that they should be organized into entirely seperate category trees, but that is a discussion for a different time. ralok (talk) 16:11, December 24, 2014 (UTC)
A third Infinites tab seems like a logical step foward. - AV-6R7User talk:AV-6R7 18:49, December 24, 2014 (UTC)
I still am wary of it being called Infinities though, as Infinities was a branding term and shouldn't be applied to material not released under the Infinities label. ProfessorTofty (talk) 01:29, December 25, 2014 (UTC)
But unlike "legends" infinities doesn't refer to a specific continuity. "Legends" is being treated like a brand here,buttheterm is only used by Lucasfilm/disney to refer to the old EU, yet its being used here to also refer to non-canon works that were not part of the EU continuity, and merely existed at the same time as it. Doesn't that seem a bit silly to anyone else? If its non-canon its neither part of Legends nor Canon, it shouldnt matter when it was made. It shouldn't be too difficult to sort this out "Canon" would be the default, Legends a sup-age and a namespace, and non-canon a third namespace. First and foremost priority should be "canon" there should be no specialized namespace for "canon". And I am going to bring it up now, I don't think that these materials should be categorized in the same categories. Its well known that wookieepedia is used by writers of Star Wars, lets say theoretically they want a list of planet names? or a list of species? Mixing non-canon, canon, and legends up in the same categories may inadvertently allow non-canon to bleed into canon, it sure would look silly if in a new Star Wars book Jek-14 ended up on a list of clone troopers. ralok (talk) 12:36, December 25, 2014 (UTC)
With regard to your last point, that would not be a problem in the least, and is actually what some of us would want to happen. Lucasfilm said in the original reboot announcement that Legends remains available as a resource for authors. Several EU elements such as thorilide have already been incorporated into NuCanon. I'd rather see more of that than less of that. —MJ—Comlink 02:00, December 26, 2014 (UTC)
I have to disagree that something being non-canon automatically means that it doesn't matter whether it came from Legends or the new continuity. For example, the story "An Apology" is not simply non-canon, but non-canon Legends because it references characters such as Mara Jade Skywalker and stuff like the Yuuzhan Vong, things that not only aren't part of the new continuity, but I think we can all agree with a fair amount of certainty are never going to be. Those things are Legends, and in the case of this story, the use of them was non-canon within the Star Wars Legends continuity. ProfessorTofty (talk) 02:32, December 26, 2014 (UTC)
(reset indent) Hate to be that guy, but let's stick to the topic: what the default page should be with the Canon/Legends split. It's not about categories, or personal canonical preferences, or whether something is canon or non-canon within Legends. I'd like to insist that we stick to the topic at hand, otherwise this is going to get really dragged out and disorganized. Thanks! - Brandon Rhea(talk) 02:47, December 26, 2014 (UTC)
Right. No problem, that certainly makes sense. Well, at this point, we have pretty much universal agreement from everyone so far that we should change Canon to the default. What we don't have yet is any response from anyone who's an admin. Might it be a good idea to contact some of them on their talk pages and ask them to weigh in if they have the chance, or try to hit them up on chat and have them come over that way? ProfessorTofty (talk) 15:54, December 26, 2014 (UTC)
They know about it. If they want to chime in, they will. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 16:06, December 26, 2014 (UTC)
I've commented, so that's one admin. The others will comment here if and when they want to. Sometimes people choose to stay out of contentious SH discussions and wait to express their opinion in the ensuing CT, and that's OK also. —MJ—Holocomm 23:28, December 27, 2014 (UTC)
Also riff replied. Anyways, I'm ready for the CT as I have a few more points to make there. It seems that most will probably make their opinion known on the CT. Fe Nite (talk) 16:00, December 29, 2014 (UTC)
No CT at least until Cade replies. He will be responsible for making the change from a technical perspective, and he's figuring out a plan. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 16:19, December 29, 2014 (UTC)