This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Senate Hall page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. Advanced Jedi Training Droid 6(Talk to my master) 07:00, January 5, 2016 (UTC)
Okay, the latest info has come out for the first of Wave VII for X-Wing Miniatures, the X-Wing: Imperial Assault Carrier Expansion Pack. Let's put it this way, the specific timeline placement for this wave was already problematic before the announcement with the inclusion of both Canon elements such as the Gozanti-class cruiser/Agent Kallus, the Ghost from Star Wars: Rebels, and the Inquisitor and his TIE Advanced v1, and Legends elements such as the Punishing One and the Mist Hunter (and that's not even taking into account the definitely canon-placement of the T-70 X-wing and TIE/fo Fighter expansion packs that were unveiled well after the announcement of Wave VIII). With this new announcement, however, trying to decide which timeline to place them in had just gotten even more difficult and a far bigger problem.
Namely, aside from the canon parts with Kallus and the name Gozanti-class cruiser, at least three-fourths of the TIE fighter cards have pilots that were from the Legends timeline. Namely, Wampa, Chaser, and Youngster. Youngster is especially so of a problem since unlike Wampa or Chaser, he never made an appearance at all in the movies.
At this rate, the only ones of this set that are confirmed beyond any doubt to belong in which timeline are the T-70 X-wing and TIE/fo Fighter expansion packs, possibly the Ghost pack as well. The Mist Hunter and Punishing One sets are most likely Legends material especially when they haven't debuted in any canon works yet, The v1 had already been given a brief allusion in Star Wars: Imperial Handbook: A Commander's Guide, a Legends book in other words, so it's in the gray area (especially when they might actually include Legends-era pilots in there as well) and as you can see with the Imperial Assault Carrier pack, it's a mess to organize by itself, making it impossible to decide where it belongs.
We're definitely going to need clarification on this issue soon. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:38, November 28, 2015 (UTC)
EDIT: Okay, a bit of a correction. Instead of "three-quarters" of the TIE-related pilot cards, it's more like all of them, since apparently, Scourge is referring to Trel Skutu, who like Youngster is definitely a Legends-exclusive character. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 15:24, November 28, 2015 (UTC)
To be honest, I've recently come to the conclusion that we shouldn't be including any FFG stuff in either timeline, especially the X-Wing miniatures game since as you point out it now allows you to pit Legends and canon characters against one another. I agree with what Brandon has said in the past: that some sources aren't meant to be either canon or legends and don't actually contribute to continuity at all, purely existing as either collections of previously given information from both continuities (For example: most of the De Agostini magazines) or simply as games. As such, I think that at the very least the X-Wings miniatures stuff could all be moved to the BTS sections of articles, especially since there's no story in any of it as far as I'm aware. That being said, there's no reason that any of the TIE pilots you listed couldn't exist as individuals in canon, in the same way that Screed exists in canon despite previously being legends-exclusive. Ayrehead02 (talk) 16:46, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
The complication with that train of thought is that some of the FFG material was released before the announcement, meaning that it would be included in Legends articles by default.--Exiled Jedi (talk) 16:55, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
True, anything pre-announcement is probably fine as just being legends, but with all the post-announcement stuff I'd say it's risky to include it outside of the BTS either way. Most of it goes in legends at the moment from what I've seen, but since it seems to avoid all stuff that might contradict new canon and includes new canon exclusive content I'm not sure that's any more sensible than making it canon. I also swear there's a quote from one of the developers saying they think of it all as outside of canon, but I can't find it at the moment. Ayrehead02 (talk) 17:04, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
The current site MO, which remains the standard, is to treat the Miniatures packs as insular. If one contains NuCanon stuff, then it's NuCanon; if not then it's Legends. So those pilots are NuCanon. CadeCalrayn 17:23, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
Why? Just because it was released after the timeline split? By that logic, we should change the Imperial Handbook's status to canon instead of legends just because it was primarily made and released after the split to fit in perfectly with the site MO, and that's despite the book company making clear it was legends material only (and for the record, that also contained canon material in there, like Lothal). When you segregate timelines, you need to keep them very segregated, I guess in a way similar to the Segregated South as tasteless as that sounds. In other words, I deal in absolutes with this (and pretty much everything else, but definitely this subject at hand). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 17:48, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
Good for you, but that's not how we work here, and it's not even feasible. There's no reason to try and make this any more complicated; we have an easily-understood and workable system with the Miniatures. CadeCalrayn 20:07, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) :D ProfessorTofty (talk) 00:23, November 30, 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I get the reference (that being said, even when I first saw Revenge of the Sith, me and my family never understood what the line was supposed to mean. Probably the closest we've ever gotten to an explanation was that it was apparently supposed to be a dig against Republicans.). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 11:37, November 30, 2015 (UTC)
We got confirmation from Pablo (I think) a while back that the Imp Handbook is not canon. So there's that... Nivlacanator(talk) 17:38, December 2, 2015 (UTC)
BTW, guys, considering the preview for the Ghost Expansion Pack is called "Lothal Rebels Part One", I think it's pretty clear that the Imperial Assault Carrier is not going to be part of the Rebels lineup, and thus is probably considered Legends, even if it DOES have a character from Rebels. It's not the first time Legends incorporated material from the Canon timeline. As pointed out earlier, the Imperial Handbook is part of Legends, even AFTER it was released and largely made after the split, yet it incorporated elements from the canon timeline (like Lothal, for example). I think we should add the original Legends-related links back in for the pilot cards. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 00:46, December 6, 2015 (UTC)
(resent indent) Since I'm not familiar with this source at all, does it actually include new information or is it just a collection of existing Star Wars lore? Because someone asked Pablo Hidalgo about all of this on Twitter recently and his reaction to "is this canon?" was "is there even a story?" So is there actually new info, or is this simply a debate over whether to add these titles into the Sources section of canon articles? - Brandon Rhea(talk) 01:09, December 6, 2015 (UTC)
Are you referring to Star Wars: Imperial Handbook: A Commander's Guide, or the Wave VIII packs for X-Wing Miniatures? If the former, it contained a collection of existing Star Wars lore at that point, although it also contained references to Star Wars: Rebels, namely, the fall of Lothal, Lothal itself, and probably the TIE Advanced v1. The book was then stated by becker&meyer to be of Legends continuity (ie, non-canon to the NuCanon), and this is despite it containing information from Rebels. Bear in mind, the book was primarily written in the period AFTER the Legends/Canon split was first revealed, and was released several months afterward. It might have contained some new information, though. I certainly know it revealed some new battles that weren't even mentioned before, and confirmed some things that were ambiguous from the X-Wing computer game. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 01:20, December 6, 2015 (UTC)
For Waru's sake, drop the Handbook, Weedle. We're not debating that, and we never will. It's Legends, and he was quite obviously asking about the X-Wing packs. CadeCalrayn 01:22, December 6, 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I'm asking about the X-wing packs. The Handbook question was settled long ago. I am not familiar with the X-wing packs, though. - Brandon Rhea(talk) 01:26, December 6, 2015 (UTC)
@Cade: Hey, Cade, I only explained what the handbook was about because I thought Brandon Rhea asked what it was about. And quite frankly, it would be debated if we are to go with the "site MO", precisely because it was released after the canon/legends split (after all, if we go by site MO, we'd have to automatically list the book as "Canon" simply by virtue of it being released and made after the split). And either way, considering that the preview for the Ghost Expansion Pack explicitly said in its title that it was the first Rebels-themed expansion pack in Wave VIII, it means the Imperial Assault Carrier is not Rebels-themed, meaning it's more likely to be Legends now and that we've now got a Legends counterpart to Kallus. @Brandon Rhea: Most of the expansion packs as well as the Core Sets do come with missions that act as a story mode, and some even have campaigns as well. Don't know if that's enough, though. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 01:31, December 6, 2015 (UTC)