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Forums > Senate Hall archive > Violations of Fair Use rules

I think everyone should read Wikia:Forum:Fair use images in templates. This wiki has many violations of how Fair Use images can be used without getting the wiki (or Wikia.com) in legal hot water. Will (Talk - contribs) 01:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I guess it's time to start dismantling our templates, then. jSarek 04:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Yay! We can go back to a simpler box form that doesn't take up so much space and screw up formatting. —Xwing328(Talk) 04:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • is that sarcasm or seriousness? I can't tell without hearing the voice itself. -- SFH 04:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • There goes customization. Thanks for ruining the appeal. -- Riffsyphon1024 04:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • BS. Kuralyov 04:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I think we need to just come out and say we're not going to change this. Look at TFn, just for one example of a Star Wars site that uses images in a non-fair use manner--and actually makes money--but nobody touches them. LFL is not a bunch of mad dogs out hunting for people to sue. If they were, this issue would have been a problem long ago. -- Darth Culator (Talk)(Kills) 04:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Ditto. Of course the fact that TFN is a collective of LFL whores might have something to do with it. Kuralyov 04:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • LFL does not care. Neither should you. Havac 04:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Also, I think that deliberate efforts to suck the fun out of Wookieepedia should be a bannable offense. -- Darth Culator (Talk)(Kills) 04:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I don't even want to think about the hell that would rain down on us for banning someone because he asked us to comply with the law. jSarek 04:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Um...I should note that Wikipedia doesn't even comply with these guidelines.... QuentinGeorge 04:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
    • What do you mean? All of their template images are GFDL-compliant or public domain. jSarek 04:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Oh, right. Still, what's the difference between this and, say, the headers in the TFN Jedi Council boards? QuentinGeorge 04:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
        • Nobody has complained to tf.n's parent organization and asked for the non-fair-use banners to be removed. jSarek 04:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
          • Agreed. I certainly don't see any LFL rep complaining here, either. And let's be honest, I'm sure the lawyers have much better things to do than say, "I demand you remove that image of Yoda from that "More to say, have you Qui-Gon" template!" QuentinGeorge 04:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Technically, the entire concept of a Star Wars Wiki is a legal offense. We are using characters without Lucas' permission. And if Lucas wanted, can press charges anyway. --RedemptionRedemptionusersymbolTalk 04:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Let's make crude drawings of every single image that's used in templates. They have to be done with a charcoal pencil too. Cull Tremayne 04:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I think people just get a little over-carried-away with "copyright infringement" and clearly defining fair use, when as Sarek said in the other Transcripts thread, it isn't black and white. If LFL isn't bothering you guys (um, I seriously doubt they're going to sue the biggest fan wiki and promotor within the fan community over some fun templates that aren't taking any money out of their pockets), I don't see why anyone needs to get their panties in a bunch over "preempting" any strikes from them. --64.253.48.73 05:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • There is definitely no reason I will support any change here just because a Memory Alpha admin "complained." If LFL wants us to take them down they can tell us themselves. Kuralyov 05:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Still, for images, I think we should exercise a teensy bit of moderation for once. Say, in the plot summary for a film. Use two damn images. Not twenty. .... 05:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, that was an unpopular suggestion. Still, even if we all hate the idea, if current practice turns out to violate fair use guidelines, away they should go. (Even so, we could still keep quotes on the templates — the suggestion that we replace them with fan-made graphics which was made on the central Wikia thread seems to me unlikely to work well.) —Silly Dan (talk) 13:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Nobody important has complained. Based on precedent (going back to the birth of the internet), it seems clear that nobody important will complain. This site has been using these images in this manner for two years, and we know we've gotten more than a little official attention. They can shut us down any time they want even if we change the templates. I see no reason to radically alter the face of the site just because one troublemaker who can't find any positive or productive way to make an impact wants to make a mark by making life less fun for everyone. -- Darth Culator (Talk)(Kills) 14:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed. If LFL was going to take action, they'd have taken action. Jorrel Fraajic Wiki-shrinkable 16:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Well i really have no use of pics. user:Darth Alex12:17,5 Feburary 2007 (UTC)

  • SFH - in response to my comment at the top: sarcasm with a hint of truth :P —Xwing328(Talk) 20:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, we better solve this issue before LFL sues us till our pants drop. All our top administrators and leading contributors including the Inquisitors should visit the Wikia link posted by Will Pittenger on top of this page. We also would not like it if Wikia takes over the management of this site if we do not abide by the proposed changes. Zainal 03:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
    • The whole point is that LFL isn't going to sue us. The backlash would be instant and highly unpleasant. That's why they never go after people unless they use LFL properties in actual merchandise like books and shirts. Have you actually seen some of the copyright violations that they ignore? I'll make a list tomorrow, but there are a lot. This is effectively a non-issue. -- Darth Culator (Talk)(Kills) 04:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Okay, well first off, I guess since I am an administrator and an Inquisitor (though a) that body doesn't exist yet and b) It barely has any power), I should have an opinion on this. To be honest, I don't think this is a huge deal. I would personally like to hear from Wikia higher-ups, especially Angela, on this. If they hand down the ruling saying we need to phase them out, well, that's one thing. On the other order of traladon ribs, this isn't a huge deal- I've seen screenshots from Star Wars splashed all over the Internet on fansites and barely fansites. You don't see Lucasfilm sending out hordes of lawyers in Mandalorian armor to shut them down. So, my take is, unless it's mandated by Wikia higher-ups and/or Lucasfilm, I think that- since this is non-profit- we can claim "fair use" on these images. It's something to think about, for sure, but I'm opposed to one non-admin user, who has no special status on Wikia either, mandating us to do something. Atarumaster88 Jedi Order (Audience Chamber) 04:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey, calm down guys... Will raised a legitamate question, but there is no mass deletion of your user page images on the horizon. We don't have the same aims as wikipedia in all ways, and we don't have to share their policies in all things... so I don't think there is an automatic thing of "no fair use on user pages". If there are concerns in the community, we can discuss them. If there is a complaint from a copyright holder, then we'll deal with that. We don't need to rush in and delete stuff, especially in a week when us Wikia staff are all distracted by the staff meeting ;) There is no need to move fast on this, and my opinion is that there will be no need to move on it at all. A fan site is different from an encyclopedia, with different aims and different rules. Wikia will respect that of course -- Sannse 04:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to suggest a compromise. If we don't need to remove the images ASAP, we should at least mark them. Suppose we create a template that adds the page to a category. We use a template so we can quickly locate the matching image. We would call it with something like "{{Fair Use Image Location|Obiwanarchives.jpg}}". It would simply evaluate to "[[Category:Locations that use Fair Use Images]]".
I know the template ignores its only parameter. It does not matter. We use the file name for searching. Once you find the template inclusion location, you know the image file name. Now you search for that. That gives us a quick way of locating image uses. I would suggest using the template only for images on pages where we might need to remove those images at a later date. Will (Talk - contribs) 04:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • We won't need to remove them at a later date. Havac 05:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Yeah, I don't see why a 'compromise' is needed when so far you're the only who wants us to remove the images. Kuralyov 06:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned in discussions above, there is most likely no need to remove the images at all. Even if removal is an issue, the image would first be identified by the copyright holder, and subsequent usages are conveniently listed under the "Links" section in the file description page. From there, "inappropriate" usages may be removed accordingly. G.He(Talk!) 05:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Therefore, there is no need to do the extra "marking". G.He(Talk!) 06:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • We're not marking the images so they can be deleted. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Almost all of our templates with images are linked through the subpages of Wookieepedia:Templates. If we get complaints from copyright holders, we can find the templates from there. If I understand the substance of what you think would potentially be a problem, we would solve the problem by simply removing the images from the template, and then deleting the image if it was no longer used in any articles. Meanwhile, since Sannse tells us we don't need to remove them, we need to do nothing at this time. —Silly Dan (talk) 12:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
      • Actually, it probably wouldn't hurt to go through the template images and find if there are any that are only used for templates. While using images that are fair use elsewhere on this site for template purposes bothers me little, we shouldn't have *any* pictures on our site under the fair use rationale that aren't being used somewhere for fair use purposes. jSarek 12:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
        • Point taken. That can be the next "image quality patrol" project after the unused image deletion project ends, perhaps. —Silly Dan (talk) 22:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I can assure you that there are fair use images outside the templates in violation-type situations. It took me only 30 seconds to find an example. You will find that image:Buis.fett.JPG is included directly into User:Darth Oblivion. Fix that with a template change. Will (Talk - contribs) 22:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

  • You still haven't figured it out, have you? You're the only one who cares about this. We have consulted Wikia staff on the issue and they said not to worry, and yet you persist. Please stop disrupting Wookieepedia and find something productive to do. -- Darth Culator (Talk)(Kills) 22:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Furthermore, all we'd need to do is add it to Jango Fett's article to prevent the great copyright violation from coming down on us. -- Riffsyphon1024 22:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Who here would not prefer a actual yes or no from LucasFilm? As is we are in a legal limbo land. I tried to go to LucasFilm's website and the official Star Wars website. Neither had any contact information available. LucasFilm does have an entire division devoted to licensing, but you would think they would have a way to report violations. It appears they don't want anyone reporting even the most extreme and blatant violations.

You might think the argument is over, but lawyers don't think that way. They see an apparent violation and demand your license. What no license? Why not? You didn't care? Too bad. Maybe you don't have any liability (unless it's your page or you added the image). Maybe the Wikia people are willing to take the risk.

But what are you going to do when this site is gone tomorrow? Since Wikia is "one big happy family," other wikis could suffer too. If Wikia suffers enough of a loss in a lawsuit, they might fold. Then what you going to do? Will (Talk - contribs) 05:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

  • You need to cut it out. Use some common sense and not the legal sense. Star Wars fansites have existed for as long as the Internet has. None of them were forced to "cease and desist". I do not speak for everyone (and you don't speak for Wikia either so stop acting like you do) but I can safely say that I would be willing to take the risk. The pure fact that Wiki has told us that we don't need to worry about it, basically throws your problems out. Unless you have something useful to contribute, then I suggest you stay at Wikipedia. --RedemptionRedemptionusersymbolTalk 05:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Will, Wikia staff have come in and said it's not a problem. Lucasfilm has long tolerated the use of fair use images on dozens of fan sites. The backlash alone from forcing everyone to pull those images off of their sites would hurt them more than help them, and would make for very cranky fans. I agree that we shouldn't have fair use images only in templates, but otherwise, the issue is null and void. No offense, but you're repeating the same points, and making baseless claims. Enough higher-ups with Lucasfilm have seen this site, that if they were patrolling for that kind of thing, we'd be frozen in carbonite already. Atarumaster88 Jedi Order (Audience Chamber) 05:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

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