This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments or questions on this topic should be made in a new Knowledge Bank page rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record. jSarek 08:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
It's coming from his hand, you just don't get to see the frame where it emerges. And you don't need to "learn" lightning - you can do it if you slip to the dark side and get angry enough. QuentinGeorge 21:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Do you need to learn it? I've heard both sides. Chack Jadson 21:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
If you're angry enough and you momentarily (or permanently) slip to the dark side, it comes naturally with rage. TitanSithspit! Talk to me! 22:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
What are you trying to pull now, Quentin? That you can just do a Force Power without learning it first is stupid. Certain prodigies have shown instictual abilities in Telekinesis, but thats about it. Especially considering that so few besides the Sith use it that it is actually known as Sith Lightning. Besides, Lightning have been used without the caster showing much anger first. Palp looked plenty jolly as he flung Yoda against his office wall for example.
It's coming from his hand, you just don't get to see the frame where it emerges Oh, please. G-Canon shows that the beam dissapates fairly quickly if not sustained, and Quin managed to hold an entire conversation while Pol fried. As far as fan-made retcons go, that must be one of the worst I've ever heard, no offense.
Do you have any proof for any of those IMO laughable explanations? Is it so hard to believe that continuity was violated once again? DarthMRN 22:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
It is canon that you do not have to learn how to throw force lightning. Case in point, Jaina Solo against Kyp Durron, while they were on Hapes and Jacen Solo in the ruins of the Jedi Temple on Yuuzhan'tar. Are you going to try and claim that Luke actually instructed his pupils how to throw force lightning at the Jedi praxeum? - JMAS 22:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. I haven't read the sources you reference, so could you elaborate on the circumstances around that? 1) Was it ever said that any of them just suddenly knew how to do it? 2) Could they have picked it up anywhere else besides the Praxeum? 3) Could it have been Electric Judgment, as in, did it say they used Force Lightning, in stead of just hurling bolts of lightning, and was the color mentioned?
Jacen Solo might have used Electric Judgment, but Jaina Solo definitely was throwing Force lightning. She was halfway dark side, and hacked off as Anakin's Skywalker's right hand at Kyp. It was described in Dark Journey as lightning. Also note that Mara Jade used Force lightning on a Dark Jedi in the Swarm War. Atarumaster88(Audience Chamber) 01:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, so there are plenty of ways J&J could have picked up Lightning, but also evidence to support that it might be a reflexive Force skill. Hopefully the JvS:EGttF will shed some light on this. DarthMRN 09:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Case for Jaina against Kyp is from Dark Journey, don't have access to my copy of the book so can't give a page number. And the case for Jacen, was either Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand or Traitor, can't recall which, though I'm thinking it was Traitor. And it was not force judgement. Jacen was in a rage, it was Force lightning. - JMAS 18:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. But that Jacen was in a rage doesn't prove that it wasn't Lightning. Though, given his experience with Force Shock, it is highly probable it was.
BTW, the Wizards SWRPG repeats several times that Force powers are learned, which is further supported by the game mechanics that limit certain powers to certain Prestige classes. Reflexive use is the exception, not the rule, and anyone saying otherwise is speculating. DarthMRN 20:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't we all just accept that Force Lightning is always gonna do whatever is deemed to be cool at a given time, regardless of logic or consistency? I mean, honestly, Electric Judgment? Is there gonna be a special name for the lightning Adi Gallia uses in ship-to-ship combat in Jedi Starfighter? CooperTFN 20:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
That would be cool, but would open the way for Lightning having no limitations, which I think a lot of fans would be displeased with. Gallia's Ship Lightning has been rendered non-canon, which is why this thing with Vos still stands out as the only one of its kind. DarthMRN 21:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, what the Wizards SWRPG says is that many Force skills can be used untrained, and *all* of the Dark Side skills, including Force Lightning, include the little mark indicating they can be used without training. jSarek 06:35, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe you are looking at this the wrong way, DarthMRN. There isn't the division between the force powers that you suggest - that's merely a gameplay convention. In-Universe, Luke isn't thinking, "I need to use force-push". He's thinking, "I'm stretching out with my powers and pushing this rock." With regards to lightning - again, you're making a judgement on a single comic panel, and then drawing an unrelated conclusion out of thin air.
A few points:
Comic art is just that. Art. It can be misleading. Despite what is depicted, Yarael Poof and Yaddle do not rise from the dead late in the Clone Wars.
Comics are not movies - certain "scenes" are missing. Imagine if you saw the below images:
This doesn't mean Yoda is making the lightning.
Nor does this mean Ventress can shoot lightning from her eyes
Actually, what the Wizards SWRPG says is that many Force skills can be used untrained, and *all* of the Dark Side skills, including Force Lightning, include the little mark indicating they can be used without training.
It isn't quite as simple as that.
Force Lightning (Int):Dark Side Force Skill; Requires the Force Sensitive and Alter Feats
Alter (Force Feat)Benefit: You many learn Alter-based Force Skills. Once this Feat is selected, Alter-based Force Skills are considered to be Class skills for you.
No, this still doesn't rule out untrained use, but that has little impact here since Quin clearly wasn't using the power untrained, and these are mere game mechanics. The books say several places that Force powers are trained or learned, in sections not remotely connected to game mechanics or descriptions. DarthMRN 10:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not saying you couldn't be right. That it isn't merely artistic licence. But unlike the poor counter-examples you provided, there is nothing in the context around those single panels to indicate that Quin shot the beams from his hands. The context around those pictures clearly showed where the Lightning originated. This one doesn't. Had there been a singe panel showing him shooting it, that would have been grounds for reasonable doubt. But no, the only hint at where the beams come from are the floor and several objects in the room. Heck, Quin even uses his hand for chocking Pol while the Lightning fries.
What I am saying is that there is no logical interpretation that supports your claim, effectively pushing it into the realm of conjecture. It may yet be blamed on artistic licence as you say, but until it is, from official sources, it is a contradiction. DarthMRN 10:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I want to know how you "train" in Force Lightning. "Think this thought!" "Put your hand in this contortion!" I mean seriously, from the films we've seen that it's basically all about concentration, Quin not taking a "Force Lightning class" means next to nothing. And I'm not sure how you don't understand Quentin's example, it's also conjecture to say that the lightning came from the floor just because there are some tendrils of lightning touching objects around the room. Since we know that Force Lightning comes from the hand, it's not silly conjecture to say that we just didn't "see" the panel where it was released from his hand, and as Quentin pointed out, it's the context, so the lightning could just as likely be going from Pol to the ground and objects in the room, not the other way around. Cull Tremayne 17:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how one trains in the Force, or indeed how it is experienced. That has been left deliberately vague. All I know is that there are several examples of powers and techniques that a Force user was unable to use until he got a hold of a holocron, book or scroll to learn it from. What is it that makes the Jedi and Sith more powerful than all the other, more primitive Force organizations, or at all require masters to learn from, if it's all about midi-chlorian count and concentration?
I can't prove that it's coming from the floor in stead of from Pol's body. That's besides the point. All I'm saying is that either of those are more likely than his hand, from the information provided in that comic. I'm not arguing where it is coming from, I'm arguing that contrary to current canon, its not coming from his hand. If it is artistic licence, then so be it. But it has to be officialy confirmed first. DarthMRN 18:53, 15 April 2007 (UTC)