Star Trek versus Star Wars
From Wookieepedia, the Star Wars wiki.
- "Star Wars is Star Wars and nothing else is. (Not even Empire Strikes Back, despite what some people say.) Comparisons, as my mother would say, are odious, but there it is. Star Wars."
- ―Joss Whedon[src]
Star Trek versus Star Wars debates are indulged in by a minority of fans of the Star Trek and Star Wars series who enjoy discussing with (and/or trolling) one another on the Internet and in other venues.
A post on a newsgroup or Web board might pose a question such as:
- "Which would win? The Enterprise-D or a Star Destroyer?"
In July 1997, the alt.startrek.vs.starwars newsgroup was created to try and shift these (often heated) debates off the more "mainstream" Star Trek and Star Wars groups. As of 2004, some 265,000 posts had been made to the group. One of the earliest threads, discussing the stereotypical question provided above, dragged out over 1,200 posts without reaching any kind of conclusion.
Some problems faced by those who enjoy indulging in such analyses include the internal inconsistencies in both fictional universes, definitions of which "evidence" should be acceptable from the plethora of books, comics, and other published materials, and how (or even if) real-world physics and engineering should be used to analyze this evidence.
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Value of the debate
The value of this debate had often been doubted by non-participants. Its place in popular entertainment, in print and other media, and its presence on the Internet are historical realities.
The debate sheds light on the profound social emotions underlying popular literary activities in the 21st century. In this it is similar to other heated debates around popular fiction, such as the debate between the proponents of classicism (or sometimes Neoclassicism) and the proponents of Romanticism in the 19th century. These conflicts could take on violently emotive tones, and bear witness to the links between society and popular Art. When we talk in scholarly tones about the rise of romantic opera in the 19th century or the displacement of poetry by the novel in that same century we often forget that the great classics that came out of these activities also had many potboilers as companions and that theater venues of the period were often filled with rowdies of the Classicist and Romantic camps, ready to start scuffles and fistfights during performances.
On the Internet, the violence is verbal only. Instead of throwing opera programs and other handy objects at partisans of the other camp, the combatants representing the Roddenberry and Lucas universes throw insults, in an interaction known as flaming. Instead of dressing up in a provocative manner, typical of the allure of their group, when going to a representation (of opera or plays) the participants in a Star Trek/Star Wars flame war post flamebait to provoke angry responses. In all these Internet specific matters, the Star Wars/Star Trek debates offer endless breaches of Netiquette. Because of the high volume involved and the spread of the debate over lists, forums blogs and other Internet media the debate also sheds light on the social nature of the Internet.
Major issues
One of the issues in the debate has to do with technological considerations: Star Wars and Star Trek are set in entirely different continuities with technology that are completely mismatched. Star Trek is trying to represent a utopian society and technology of a Human civilization not so distant from now, while Star Wars is set "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away", showing us a galactic civilization that has discovered space travel at least 200,000 years ago, which gives it more liberty, in a sense. The Star Wars Galaxy also features Human aliens that look like Terrans from Earth although no canon links them.
Another issue has to do with form: Each group claims that its opus has better writers and accuses the other of dire writing and bad scripts, to say the least. Form discussions also cover the origin of one side in broadcast television and the origin of the other side in feature film production.
Also, pro-Wars accuse Star Trek for being too Humanocentric and anthropomorphic. Aliens of Star Trek (apart from non corporeal entities) are either identical Humans, or Humans with slight make up prosthetics. They claim that the variety of species of Star Wars is more diverse, and therefore, although at few times whimsical and cartoony, more 'realistic'. On the other hand, Trekkies have accused A New Hope of not only being Humanocentric but also lacking Human racial diversity, pointing to the Rebel Alliance as being composed completely of Caucasian-looking Humans with a majority of males. (Later films featured characters such as Lando Calrissian and other non-white actors in serving in the Rebel Alliance.) The prequel trilogy can be noted for more racial diversity among actors of charecters particularly Mace Windu played by African-American actors.In comparison to A New Hope, the original Star Trek series represented much more diversity, as the roster of characters involved Humans of Anglo-American, African, Asian, Scottish, and Eastern European origins as well as a host of alien characters (although Obi-Wan Kenobi has been played by a Scottish actor, most of the Imperial officers were played by British actors and Yoda was voiced by a Briton of Polish descent).
Occasionally, the debate delves into more philosophical or political territory over motivation on the part of the creators and writers. In 1999, David Brin, a famous science fiction author wrote a number of very critical main/index.html articles on The Phantom Menace, Star Wars and George Lucas, for the website salon.com. Brin focused on what he called an "agenda" on the part of Lucas, and treated the SW vs. ST debate from a mostly political point of view.
Michael Wong wrote a rebuttal of Brin's article here. Wong has also written several other essays criticizing the moral themes of Star Trek and on its promotion of pseudoscience [1], which is his strongest criticism of the Star Trek franchise.
Canon policy
An issue that affects the nature of the debate is canon, that is, which sources are considered "official". Both Paramount and Lucasfilm have stated what they consider canon for their respective universes.
Paramount
For the most part, Paramount's policy is that only the live action movies and TV shows are Star Trek canon. There are three exceptions to this: the Voyager novels "Mosaic" and "Pathways", and one episode of the animated series, Yesteryear. The novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture is not considered canon by Paramount, even though it was written by Gene Roddenberry himself.
- While Paramount's policy often states that Mosaic and Pathways are canon, they have never been referenced in live-action trek, and are frequently contradicted.
Lucasfilm
Lucasfilm's canon policy for Star Wars is more complex and dealt with in Star Wars canon.
The AOTC:ICS and the debate
Some of the debate by the fans took an important turn in 2002 due to the publication of Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross Sections, better known by its acronyms AOTC:ICS or EP2:ICS. It was co-authored by Dr. Curtis John Saxton, a Doctor of theoretical astrophysics and long-time Star Wars fan.
AOTC:ICS had a major effect on some of the debaters because, unlike most other sources, it gave extensive statistics on Firepower, Shield Dissipation and Power Generation, instead of the more usual and fuzzy qualitative descriptions.
These detailed descriptions showed that Star Wars technology exceeded Star Trek technology greatly as almost all statistics were hundreds to thousands of times bigger in things such as Speed, Firepower, Shield Dissipation etc. which ultimately proved the pro-Wars side to be better.
After a brief period of discussion, the main debate came to an end in most forums. Pro-Wars debaters claimed that all the pieces were there before, and that all the AOTC:ICS did was put it in a complete picture that shattered the illusions of the pro-Trek side.
Pro-Trek debaters, however, doubted the authenticity of AOTC:ICS, claiming that the information in it was invalid because it contradicted other canon sources (see [2]). Some on the pro-Trek side took to questioning or even loudly deriding the author's objectivity, scientific competence (a quality for which he had specifically been hired by Lucasfilm) and even his personal integrity. But whatever the side taken, Star Trek vs Star Wars activity clearly slowed, by as much of an order of magnitude. Most debates had turned to esoterica of little strategic importance, hopelessly mismatched scenarios (such as TIE Defenders vs Federation Ships), and educating newcomers before they were flamed to a crisp on many of the less moderated boards.
Crossovers
It must be noted that it's not uncommon to find SW fans who are also ST fans, or at least find mutual appreciation between the two groups. This has led to interesting fanfictions that feature crossovers.
One of them called Trek Wars that circulated over the Internet 10 years ago, described how Q sent the Enterprise-D in the Galaxy, to help the New Republic against the Imperial Remnant. The relationships and differences between the two cultures and technologies are explored, and the story ended with William Riker and Han Solo playing poker.[1]
Another fic on the same lines was RJ Striker JK5's Where no Jedi Has Gone Before, which is based during the Young Jedi Knight's era of Star Wars and Post-Dominion War era of Star Trek, has Will and Han playing poker, Mr. Spock and Deanna Troi (among others) receiving Jedi training, Lusa joining the Federation Starfleet, and the second part has the Borg, led by an AU version of Jaina Solo, who has assumed the title of Borg Queen against the Federation, New Republic, Chiss, and Imperial Remnant.[2]
Most fans, in this compromise, also do not give that much attention to which ships have more firepower or not, or which is faster during sublight or not. They tend to view both sides as equal, or one side having an advantage over the other (Hyperdrive is faster, yet Warp Drive is safer and more versatile, for example), and they tend to also ignore the ICS and fan calculations.
One typical plot twist common to fanfiction features Data choosing to stay in the Star Wars galaxy and lead a droid rights movement.
On the website YouTube, there is a short video "YouTube: Star Trek vs. Star Wars" showing the Enterprise-D encountering the Imperial fleet, with clips from several Star Trek episodes (as well as the feature film Generations) and from the Star Wars films spliced together. The Enterprise manages to destroy several TIE Fighters, as well as the Super Star Destroyer Executor, but is forced to flee when Emperor Palpatine turns the Death Star's superlaser on them.
For the upcoming Star Trek film, the actor Chris Pine, who is playing Captain Kirk, said that his performance was inspired by Han Solo and Indiana Jones.[3]
Video games
There was a Star Trek versus Star Wars mod created for the video game Star Trek: Armada 2. The mod appears to use ship models from X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter for the Star Wars ships. The mod featured the Federation, the Klingon Empire, the New Republic, and the Empire. Each side was given a "hero" ship; the Enterprise-E for the Federation, Chancellor Martok's Neg'Var for the Klingons, the Home One for the New Republic, and a random Star Destroyer for the Empire.
ILM
Perhaps unknown to many of the participants in this debate, Star Wars and Star Trek are connected in several ways, in that many people have been involved in the production of both. For instance, ILM, which were founded by George Lucas and are largely responsible for all special effects shots in the Star Wars movies, were also involved in several Star Trek movies. ILM were involved in one way or another in the following Star Trek productions:
- Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
- Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
- Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
- Star Trek: The Next Generation - Encounter at Farpoint
- Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
- Star Trek Generations
- Star Trek: First Contact
Notes and references
- Reynolds,David West. Hans Jenssen, Richard Chasemore Incredible Cross-Sections (Star Wars, Episode I: The Phantom Menace) Dorling Kindersley Publishing, 2002. ISBN 078943962X
- Saxton,Curtis John, Hans Jenssen, Richard Chasemore Star Wars: Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross Sections Dorling Kindersley Publishing, 2002. ISBN 0789485745
External links
- alt.startrek.vs.starwars The newsgroup created to debate this issue, it has suffered a steady loss in membership since about 2001, as the consensus there switched to one of decisive Star Wars advantage. Most of the former regulars have moved on to other web-board communities such as Stardestroyer.net or Spacebattles.com.
- the alt.startrek.vs.starwars newsgroup FAQ - Maintained by Chuck Sonnenburg.
- Daltonator.net - Rob Dalton's site hosts two vs.-debate-related sections: the alt.startrek.vs.starwars Fanfic Archive, which contains nearly sixty megabytes of Star Trek versus Star Wars crossover fanfiction, and the Frequently Unasked Questions (FUQ), a collection of SWvST cultural idiosyncrasies and anecdotes gathered mainly from alt.startrek.vs.starwars and the SDN BBS. Reading most of this site's content does not require knowledge of SW or ST esoterica, as it focuses more on the personalities and culture of those that participate in the debates.
- Spacebattles.com - A website showing fan based movies on Star Trek and Star Wars, amongst other science fiction universes. It also contains forums for discussion on Star Trek vs. Star Wars debates amongst other topics pertaining to science fiction.
- The Ultimate Star Wars vs. Star Trek Database - Wayne Poe's Star Wars vs. Star Trek website, one of the first to arise in the debate and the inspiration for others. The content of the site is based almost exclusively on actual posts and emails that Wayne has accumulated over the years.
- StarDestroyer.Net - A Star Wars-themed website by mechanical engineer Michael Wong that compares the technologies of the two universes. The website also contains award-winning fan fiction and a BBS community.
- ST-v-SW.Net - A site by Robert Anderson, a controversial figure in the versus debate. This site uses an interpretation of canon that differs from the official canon policies of Lucasfilm Ltd. and Paramount.
- Starfleet Jedi - A site featuring technical commentary pertinent to the debate. The website also contains a BBS and a wiki.
- Star Wars Technical Commentaries - By astrophysicist Curtis Saxton, who has since begun writing extensive Star Wars "non-fiction" works for Lucas Licensing. There is no explicit Star Trek vs. Star Wars content on the site, though the observations and calculations found within are often cited.
- Daystrom Institute Technical Library - By educator Graham Kennedy, this is also not a Star Trek vs Star Wars site, instead focusing on Star Trek technology. The text is generally color coded to discriminate between Canon and Speculation. The site does contain a Star Trek vs. Star Wars fanfic entitled "Portal" in which Trek technology is superior.
- TrekWars: The Furry Conflict - A lighter take on the Star Trek vs. Star Wars niche, featuring original characters, role play, technical discussion, and an extensive central story.
- The Enterprise versus the Millennium Falcon: Who Would Win? - Egg Troll, a reasonably well known troll on sites such as slashdot and kuro5hin posted a newsgroup message on December 9, 2002. This troll worked remarkably well, with over 100 replies over a nine day period. It led to one poster to remark that he was "Trying to stir up trouble in the two main Nerdocracies". [3]
