Talk:Destruction of Alderaan

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Two picturesEdit

Do we need two pictures about the explosion? - TopAce 17:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Small detail in ANHEdit

I see this page has been expanded to include a battle around Alderaan while the DS main gun charged up. Interestingly enough, there's at least a pretext for both the Rebels having ships nearby as well as the DS having an escort. In ANH, you see the planet from two different sides on Tarkin's viewscreen, one would be from the DS POV, while another would be from the view of an escorting warship. There is also a painting by Ryan Church in his "in-universe photographic tour" from SW:Visionaries, showing a myriad of Rebel warships and transports gathering next to an Alderaanian city. VT-16 22:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The 2 explosion pictures seem useful especially considering how much discussion their is in the community reagrding the power of the Death Stars blast and it's effects (The 1e38 joule calculation for example as well as it being a DET effect) not to mention the shield glow.

  • Here's something more for the shield-debate, a series of screencaps I took from my DVD:

You can make out the glow spreading across a limited part, not most of the atmosphere pointing towards the DS. This is consistent with shield effects seen elsewhere in all six films, where energy from a blast lights up only the nearby area of a shield. Also, if the ray in the first "contact" images had hit the surface of an unsheltered planet, it would already show debris flying out from the hit surface, not a shield-glow effect.. VT-16 19:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

    • I guess this is as good a place as any to leave this. It can also be found in the discussion section for Planet Shields. In the Dark Empire Source book it is specifically stated that Alderaan had no shields. Yet Darth Vader states (In the novelization of A New Hope) that Alderaan's defenses were as great as any in the Empire, and it was known (later at least, but not at the time of the book's print) that the Empire had planetary shielding at the time. So, we have two EU sources here. What do we do? The first thing we do is we look up what canon is.

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies." ~ Christopher Cerasi

It seems this quote states that the novelizations should be treated with only a fraction less gospel than the movies (at least from how I'm reading it) Meaning both Source Book, and the ANH novel...are both correct, despite conflicts. What do we do then? We use Occam's Razor. Which explanation is the most obvious; which one raises less new assumptions? Darth Vader's quote isn't so vague that the meaning cant be clearly interpreted, but the DESB is far more concrete on the subject material. It gives us a flat, blunt statement. For any one who questions the validity of the DESB, I present yet another quote from this very site "Background information given in the RPG sourcebooks such as biographies, stories, blueprints, etc. is proper canon."

Occam's Razor states to find the truth you must seek the answer that is most obvious, or the one that raises fewer new assumptions. Due to what is and is not canon in Star War, and with the added weight of Occam's Razor, I, personally, can only see room for the theory that Alderaan did not have planetary shielding. As for the flash seen over the planet? I'm afraid that by simply looking at the sphere of the planet itself one can see that it is not extra-atmospheric, but seems to be with in the area of the atmosphere itself. With how the Death Star's super laser destroyed a planet like Alderaan in such a swift and violent manner, the power it would need to do so would have had to have been absolutely immense. I see no reason why the flash seen can not be assumed as the atmosphere igniting from the heat of the laser before the planet's apocalyptic end. 13:49, March 4, 2012 (UTC)Darth Aryx

Number of dead Edit

How many died in the blast, is it known? Kuralyov 03:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia says the population of Alderaan was 2 billion beings. Somewhere I saw 8 billion, though, so I'm not sure what to believe. --Gurbiza 10:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Don't believe to Wikipedia. It's great for learning about the real world: history, literature, arts, and other interesting areas, but somehow I don't trust in it's Star Wars articles. I read many weird things there about Star Wars. - TopAce 19:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Imperial Spin Edit

What was the propaganda about Alderaan's getting blasted? Did they try to say it was Rebel terrorism, or did they actually just flat-out tell everyone "We blew it up because they gave us crap, so suck on it" Commander Mike 03:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  • They claimed that the Alderaanians had built a giant underground superweapon that misfired. It was in one of the Galaxywide Newsnets from Star Wars Gamer, I think. Kuralyov 03:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Feel free to add that intriging piece of evidence. -- Riffsyphon1024 03:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I can't remember the exact excuse, and I don't have the article on me. I'll try to find it, and maybe someone else has access to it? Kuralyov 03:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The Essential Guide to Planets and Moons alludes to that bit of Imperial spin. They don't use the terms "superweapon" or "misfire," but it mentions "titanic internal detonations". After this was exposed as a lie by pirated holoclips, the Empire pretty much then said "yeah, we did, but to prevent 'Bail Organa's biowar virus.'" Cyril 16:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
      • So it was that "we destroyed it in order to prevent the rebels from deploying bioweapons." I had heard that somewhere, but I wasn't quite sure. Thanks. FVZA_Colonel 12:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Sort it out Edit

Just a thought, but wouldn´t it be better if that battle-info tab(the Cmdr./strength/casulties and so on) would be given sepparate section,because in contains non-movie materials. E.g. stuff from EAW becasuse it says the planet was defended, and this contradicts the films:in ANH the Imps just came in and blew the planet up without any resistance. So please give this EU material in articles describing movie events separate section. Hominid 19:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

As this EU-rubbish about a battle of Alderaan is completely non-canon and actually contradicts G-canon it should be removed COMPLETELY! There was no battle whatsoever, not in the movie and not in the novelization so take it out.

if we are going to delte the battle, we might as well fix the box too that says who parpitcated. or should we delete this? or was something missed?

Completely remove it. I cannot believe how EU-infested wookiepedia is. Even strict G-canon is ignored.

Groode hdoge 21:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah? What kind of canon is that? There WAS no battle in the movie, that is what is of interest here, not some made-up EU-crap. It contradicts G-canon in any way. Who by the way made up this crap?

  • Made-up EU crap? So, you saying the movies are based on true events. Your pathetic attempts at making a point are quite laughable and annoying, troll.--Lord OblivionSith holocronSith Emblem 20:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Rebel ships attacking (and the DS being escorted by a fleet, for that matter) is pure gameplay mechanics. It happened to put anothing battle in the game rather than making the attack on Alderaan purely a cutscene. Also, the very idea of a Rebel fleet there is absurd, because Alderaan wasn't in open rebellion. The Rebels wouldn't put planets that only support them covertly at risk by openly deploying fleets to them. Red XIV 07:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe they just didn't show it in the movie. After all, the Death Star is huge and the battle could have taken place behind the viewer in the movies. Astroview120mm 03:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

  • This "Battle of Alderaan" could not possibly be considered canon. If it was, then when Princess Leia objects, saying "Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons" wouldn't Tarkin or Motti or Vader have asked her to look out the window at the Rebel fleet attacking them? Next you'll be telling me that the invincibility powerups from Super Return of the Jedi are canon. DeathSquadron 04:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I also think that it's one of the most ridiculous retcons that's ever been made. Maybe I can buy the claims that Alderaan was not a helpless, unarmed planet. Maybe. But when some author blatantly retcons G-canon, I have to call shenanigans and ask for the entire section to be removed. Or was it just in a computer game? I recognize one of the pictures from Empire at War. That only makes it even worse. Since when have software developers been concerned with canon? Chadling 17:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Just because something didn't appear in the movie doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. The entire point of the EU is not only to expand on periods of time that haven't been written about yet. The EU is also for expanding on events that have already been written about. There may not have been evidence of a battle when ANH first came out, but this is what the EU is for. The battle probably happened either behind the Death Star, or on the other side of Alderaan. Darthfuzzball

Every sentient on Alderaan=Rebels? Edit

Why do we have them under "Rebellion Losses"? Just because it was the Empire that killed them? They probably weren't all alligned to the Rebellion. Ijtzoi 15:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I think he has a point. There were probably people who supported the Empire on the planet, though I doubt the Empire would care enough to count them among their casualties.--Lord OblivionSith holocronSith Emblem 18:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Read the 'unexpected battle' part of the article. The Imperials and Rebels fought, and the Rebel fleet was destroyed. Darthfuzzball 21:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Imperial LossesEdit

Where do we get the one destroyed Imperial Star Destroyer from? What's the source for it - Empire at War? Skywalka 06:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Alderaan Cmdr. Edit

Why does the article state that Obi-Wan Kenobi and Han Solo commanded the rebels at the battle of Alderaan? They didn't even participate. 23:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Mon Cal cruiser? Edit

Why are there Mon Cal cruisers present? I thought that the rebels didn't get them until after the battle of Yavin...Unit 8311 19:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

  • They've been present for several battles prior to Yavin, either they were breakaway groups not directly supported by Mon Calamari or Rebels having bought Mon Cal ships. We know Imperials would buy Mon Calamari ships against Imperial orders, so it's not too farfetched. VT-16 14:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The New PlanetEdit

Alderaan is blow apart into many pieces? Wouldn't gravity eventually pull all the clumps back together into a new planet? Double D 17:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, sounds like a very reasonable idea. Darthfuzzball 21:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Actually, it's more than reasonable. We just went over this in my Astronomy class, concerning one of the outer moons which was destroyed then reformed because of the gravitation pull - I thought immediately of Alderaan's predicament (take that as you will ;) ). As for its occurrence IU, it never happens. It's one of those "unanswered questions", like the Endor holocaust - science says it should happen, but it doesn't. JorrelWiki-shrinkableFraajic 03:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The situation you're referring to with moons might work here, however there's been theories that the asteroid belt in our solar system is where a planet was supposed to be, but the growing Jupiter kept it from being able to and it finally shattered. The asteroid belt has likely been around for billions of years, so the Alderaan graveyard probably will too. If memory serves, it did turn into an asteroid belt around the parent star. If a planet did coalesce back out of the asteroid belt, it will likely take millions of years to do so. I think with moons, the disruption, while essentially destroying the moon, doesn't spread the remnants out like what happened with the planet, they stay relatively close to each other and the gravitational pull pulls the moons back together. leandar 05:21, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Rebel casualties Edit

0 BBY#Deaths currently has a much longer list of known victims of the planet's destruction. Should that just be to the infobox here? Should it only list as casualties beings who were Rebels, or who were part of the Rebel counterattack? --Andrew Nagy 06:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Vader's blessingEdit

Did anyone else get the sense that Vader disapproved of Alderaan's destruction? Not once did he ever voice approval to the idea, at least in the movie, and seemed to be almost as shocked as Leia. And it was Tarkin's idea from start to finish.--The Great and Grand Count Mall! 17:27, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

  • If he didn't approve then he obvouisly didn't say a word. Drsdino 00:35, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
    • He did object in the radio drama to destroying the planet without first consulting the Emperor because, as Vader put it, "Alderaan is one of the foremost of the inner systems, the Emperor should be consulted!", but Tarkin overrode him, saying that Palpatine had given him a free hand in the matter of the Rebels and it was his decision to destroy Alderaan. leandar 05:17, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

If Vader disaproved of the Destruction, than shouldn't that be mentioned somewhere in the article? --The Great and Grand Count Mall! 17:43, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

There is no conflict Edit

The {{TCWRetcon}} is completely unnecessary here. There is absolutely no conflict. The ambiguity of the dates of TCW episodes has no effect on, nor does it conflict with canon established in regards to this article. It doesn't matter when Anakin had the vision. The vision gives no specifics other than a green superlaser destroying the planet, and add to that the only two people aware he had the vision are dead, and Anakin's memory of it was erased. Once again, no conflict. And since the TCWRetcon tag is only for use when there is an explicit and direct conflict, it has no place here. Unless an explicitly specific example of any conflict is demonstrated here, I'm going to remove the tag. - JMAS Jolly Trooper Hey, it's me! 04:05, February 22, 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the "defences as strong as any in the Empire" novel quoteEdit

Not every novel quote remains canonical- if it doesn't appear onscreen. Novel content has been retconned out of existence before.

Most notably- Ben's conversation with Luke. In the novel, he continues the conversation after warning him about his feelings "They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor". He then goes on to explain what he did with Leia and Luke (Owen is here described as Ben's brother).

In the Ryder Windham book The Life And Times of Obi-Wan Kenobi, however, he ends the conversation there, simply fading away.

Proving that C-canon sources can retcon G-canon conversations our of existence.

So- if Vader's statement does not make sense in the context of later information, like the explicit statement in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that Alderaan had no shield- there is a precedent for retconning it. -- Hamish109.144.149.54 20:44, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

We'll consent only if either the recent rereleases or any future rereleases of the Original Trilogy omit the "shielding" effect shown on the screenshots mentioned in the Behind the Scenes section. Until then, it stays. Weedle McHairybug 20:48, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

The "shielding effect" has been argued in the past as not being that at all- but simply the atmosphere lighting up in the moment before the explosion. Onscreen visual effects are a bit more subject to interpretation than book statements.

For another example of C-canon retconning G-canon (or at least trying to)- Curtis Saxton's figures for the size of the second Death Star. Over 5 times the diameter of the first, would have been over 200 times the volume if complete- even incomplete it appears to be more than 100 times the volume. Yet the G-canon novelization describes the DS2 as "nearly twice as big" as the DS1.

So- if Saxton can retcon G-canon statements from the RoTJ novel, why can't the Dark Empire Sourcebook retcon the statement made by Vader that Alderaan's defences were "as strong as any in the Empire"? -- Hamish 19:49, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that the thing in frames 4 and 5 had the same animation as a shielding effect. They could have done a slightly different effect if they wanted to show the atmosphere burning up. Weedle McHairybug 22:13, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Remember that the Special Edition came out before "shielding effects" of a turbolaser bolt hitting a spherical shield (the droidekas in Episode I) did- thus it may be that they reused the basic effects.

Just how similar are they anyway?

Regardless, canon trumps fanon on Wookieepedia- and as far as I know there is no later canon source explicitly mentioning Alderaan's planetary shield, to counterbalance Dark Empire Sourcebook explicitly stating it didn't have one.

No mention in The Essential Atlas, The Essential Guide to Warfare, The Complete Visual Dictionary, the Death Star novel, The New Essential Guide to Weapons & Technology, etc.

Unless you can provide a quote, and a page number, from a canon source- Wookieepedia canon policy would suggest that it defaults to "no shield until a canon source states otherwise" -- Hamish 11:12, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

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