Talk:Division

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[edit] Edit War over interpretation of Leland Chee's comments

Take it to the talk page, hash it out over the next week (when the protection will expire), get input from other users, and for God's sake don't ask me about it: I'm only protecting it because I see an edit war, and am aggressively uninterested in either interpretation. —Silly Dan _(talk) 12:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• Okay: I'm wanting to know what the basis is for VT-16's edit claiming that Chee "did not know of any contrary statement"--and exactly what "contrary statement" in canon he's thinking of. Although it's not actually directly affected the edits on the page, he's also suggested in his notes that there may be something on "equal" armies in The Story of General Grievous: Lord of War, so I'm interested to know what that reference is, too. Simple? --McEwok 15:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

From the link in this article, Chee apparently contradicts himself, since he first says that he's guessing what it's saying, then posts the actual quote and says it's about individual clones, even though the sentence itself refers to divisions:

Question: Also, in ITW: AotC it mentions the Grand Army of the Republic consisting of 'millions of divisions' of clones

Answer: Can you be more specific as to where in the book "millions of divisions" comes from? My guess is that the figure is being misread. "The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluation." They're talking about millions of clones, not millions of divisions.

Basically, Chee's here guessing what it means, even though the sentence does not refer to individual clones. The "first batch of clone divisions" is the one which fought at the battle of Geonosis, as it was the only one ready. "Millions more" would therefore be the millions of additional batches added to the military, as the war progresses throughout the galaxy (which is literally G canon, as Lucas pointed out in the foreword to Shatterpoint that the Clone Wars stretched throughout the entire galaxy). If the number was fixed at a later date, then the editors overlooked it with the publishing of SW:CL in late 2005, which came after the Insider 84 article which first said what one GAR consisted of. (There are apparently several grand armies according to AOTC:ICS, though it might have been another book. We do know the Kaminoan cloners made more armies then the one seen in AOTC, as stated in AOTC itself, so that might be what it's referring to.)

The higher official estimate is more logical and consistent with the actual progress of the CW, as the war was fought by clones throughout a galaxy, not a continent. Whether LFL officials now agree or not, they can't have it both ways, either they have to stop publishing more CW era sources (fat chance with the new tv show), or simply admit to making a numerical mistake. I have so far seen no indication of the number of stories and therefore new battles, stopping, nor of clone fatalities ending once they reach a certain amount (to match up with LFL's given number of produced clones for a GAR).

The LOW or Insider portion of the article mentions how the droids faced an equal force of clones, and the war became a standstill as the two largest armies ever seen in galactic history clashed (can't remember exactly what it said, since I don't have it present for a few days more =/). With this and all the above (and the fact that a clone can't kill trillions of droids when in battle), it's a big continuity error to insist on the small amount of clones and therefore a small amount of divisions, as compared with the Galactic Empire that followed. VT-16 16:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

• VT, you're misunderstanding what Chee said: he's not guessing what the phrase "millions more" means; he's guessing that, when ulic_g99 asked about a reference to "millions of divisions" in ItW, he was thinking about the passage that mentions "clone divisions" then "millions more". Chee explains, without ambiguity, that this refers to "millions of clones, not millions of divisions"; and ulic_g99 confirms in his answer that this was the passage he was thinking about.
• Also, VT, you still haven't explained what you mean when you said Chee "did not know of any contrary statement", the specific phrase that's the subject of the edit-war in this article.
• I'm not sure how relevant wider questions of clone numbers are in this particular discussion; but to respond to the specific points raised:

1. The Galaxy-wide nature of the Clone Wars doesn't automatically imply high-intensity battles involving large clone forces.
2. The reference to "grand armies" in AotC:ICS is rather vague--"grand armies and fleets to defend its territorial unity". This may simply be a general adjective, "large armies and fleets", but even if it's not, multiple "grand armies" could refer to local forces like the Gungan Grand Army. There's no evidence for more than one Grand Army of the Republic.
3. I'm personally prepared to accept that all references to the "three million" figure could represent in-universe misinformation, but we don't know how much larger the GAR "really" was, if it was actually larger than this at all. If the war was fought primarily with orbital firepower and rapid, Hoth-style attacks on shielded strongpoints, three million clone troopers is probably just enough at the low-end, and on the other hand, the overall total probably shouldn't surpass the Empire-wide average of a million Imperial Army troops per sector (a total of no more than 100,000 division-sized battlegroups and legions overall).

• On LoW, I'll wait until someone provides a direct quote. --McEwok 17:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, the directive to talk it out here went nowhere. Now that the protection has expired, and bearing in mind I don't have the energy to argue it out at length, let me ask you this: does the number of divisons in the GAR even need to be in this article, or can it simply be kept in the Grand Army of the Republic and associated articles? —Silly Dan _(talk) 14:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

• The overall question of GAR numbers should go on the GAR page, certainly, but I think the meaning of "division" in the GAR needs to be discussed here, because this is a page about the use of the term "division" in SW military stuff. The only questions are: a.) whether there's any evidence for "division" as a specific size of unit in GAR (rather than a vague general term), and b.) whether the theory that there are canonically "millions of divisions" can stand in the face of Chee's comments. --McEwok 18:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Haven't found the exact quotes I was hoping for in Lord of War (other than the mention of Grievous commanding quintillions of battle droids, and that hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space during the battle of Coruscant alone, which would imply an almost equal distribution of clones, since they're almost always depicted as being the majority of the Republic's fighting force), but I did find an old essay which includes dozens of references that give little credibility to the "total army strength = 3 million individuals". I think much of it was already written in the GAR page, but I'll try to go over it and hopefully get people to look into the sources mentioned as I don't have many of the books mentioned and can't check what they say. Apparently, The New Essential Chronology mentions conscription of non-clones to the GAR, which is at least interesting. Anyone able to clarify that? As for "division" being a non-specific term, didn't the Imperial Sourcebook state that it was an actual specific unit which was later replaced by another term in the Empire? If that's so, then Beecroft and Saxton were more consistent in regards to established lore than Traviss. Also, can anyone check if Obi-Wan Kenobi is the only one who equates "units" with "individual clones" in the AOTC novelization. Apparently, he's just making a guess and therefore the matter might not be entirely clear in this high-canon source. VT-16 08:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• I don't think that overall clone numbers are an issue on this page (although I've not yet seen any conclusive evidence to rule out a total of three million: do you have a link to that "old essay"?).
• IMHO, the only thing about numbers that's relevant for this page that "millions more" is officialy, unambigiously interpreted by LFL as a reference to numbers of individual clones, not high-level formations: "millions of clones, not millions of divisions", in Leland Chee's words. His only "guess" was that ulic_g99 was referring to that passage when he asked about millions of divisions: that's NOT a guess about what the passage itself meant.
• The Republic Army divisions mentioned The Imperial Sourcebook were sector-based militias that were reorganized as battlegroups under the Empire, in order to integrate them more fully into the Imperial Army. It would have certainly been possible to choose to use "division" for the GAR, but Traviss and Kaufman's choice of Legion for the clones reflects the established terminology of the Stormtrooper Corps, and also the ancient Jedi Army of Light: I can't see any problem with the decision, and it's become the canon terminology.
• I can think of three (and a half!) possible meanings for the reference to GAR "divisions" in ItW:AotC...

1. It could just be a loose synonym for "Legion".
2. It could be a more generic term for units of troops: we get a "division" of 100 stormtroopers in Star Wars Empire: Betrayal. I also have a vague idea that Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic may use it, at least implicitly, as a general term for larger formations from battalion or regiment upwards - can someone check this?
3. It's also possible that the term "division" is used for larger forces that aren't full battlegroups or corps, especially battlefield formations formed for a specific campaign. We have a similar usage with Brigade: in the Revenge of the Sith novellization and Star Wars Dark Times 1: The Path to Nowhere, Part 1, we have references to brigades within the 501st Legion, while the Sarlacc Battalions are a de facto brigade within the 41st Elite Legion.

• As far as I know, we don't have any evidence to decide conclusively between these options, so IMHO, we shouldn't choose. --McEwok 12:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• although I've not yet seen any conclusive evidence to rule out a total of three million

The sheer number of battles so far documented and the upcoming amount of battles to be chronicled makes the 3 million estimate improbable at best, impossible at worst, unless we assume (without evidence) that each battle will be retconned to only have between 1 and 10 clone fatalities. Or that each sector governor was issued only a small amount of clones in the latter stages of the war (100 individuals or so, since there's thousands of sectors in the Republic + occupied territory). Or that Coruscant's clone security forces numbered less than a million, even if it has to watch over a population of trillions (even Iraq isn't this skewered in soldier-civilian ratio and that's still not working). And what about the security in the dozens of other city worlds in the Republic? If LFL wants to save face on this issue, they should simply have said that the GAR unit in Insider 84 was for one Army unit only, not the entire Republic Army. That's possible with the mention of other armies created by the Kaminoans (and they were only one planet of cloners), which could be added to the estimates (perhaps they even constituted some of those local militias, if they were bought by third parties). And the mention of multiple grand armies in ROTS:ICS. Last time I checked, "multiple grand armies" was still more than one grand army. I'd say the downright stupidity of even thinking that 3 million clones in total throughout a years-long war was a sound official estimate, would be grounds for a boycott of LFL products. Accounting for sector governance forces, security on city worlds, sustaining of months-long sieges throughout one of the largest territories in the galaxy (the Outer Rim), crewing millions of warships and support ships, serving as logistics crew during retirement (!), and of course having many die off prior to this late stage of the war, when all of the above was happening simultanously. To begin to concieve of that number in spite of everything else added to the CW lore, is just unimaginable. I cannot comprehend that grown people, who I assume have had at least high school-level of education, would look at the result and think "Yes, this makes sense and stands no risk of contradiction". I'm not going to go into fan preferences, because statements I've seen made by official representatives have been bad enough. As for the old "millions of divisions" statement, I would like to ask Leland Chee if he's ever spoken with the authors of those books about what they meant by that passage. If they meant individual clones or not. The essay has never been put online, as the author never completed it, but some parts have been put under the GAR article, the canonical info in the article itself or in the bts section. VT-16 15:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• As I said already, I don't think that overall clone numbers are an issue on this page.
• The only thing that's directly relevant, IMHO, is the "millions of divisions" statement. As the page says, "this may have been intended by Simon Beecroft and Curtis Saxton to mean that the Grand Army of the Republic consisted of millions of divisions", but that doesn't overrule Chee's statement about the official interpretation, which is that the line can only be taken to indicate a vague "millions of clones", not a specific "millions of divisions".
• For another example of authorial intent being overruled, compare Michael P. Kube-McDowell's well-publicised opinions on city-worlds, and the way that the intention behind his descriptions of Coruscant has been retconned.
• If you have any suggestions for other changes to the Division page, then we can discuss them here. Failing that, I think we're done here! --McEwok 16:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• That's true, and good point on the Kube-McDowell ideas. VT-16 16:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
• So... where do we go from here? --McEwok 10:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
• Nowhere, I've got no complaints on the article as it is now. VT-16 13:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
• Great! I can also answer the comment you removed, if you want... at length!! --McEwok 23:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
  • No. I realized local Imperial-loyal forces would most likely assist Stormtroopers or Army troopers, thus inflating the number of troops. VT-16 08:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)