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Talk:Form II: Makashi

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I removed reference to Cin Drallig as a Form II master, as the only reference to Cin Drallig's styles I can find in the novelization and game of Episode III state only he was a fencing instructor. Fencing doesnt automaticly mean Makashi, and especially doesnt mean Makashi mastery. If someone can give me a source I will glady replace it. - Geekmasterflash

I put it in because I heard that he was a master of Makashi. I think I happen to have heard it here. Until there is no confirmation on this, I don't revert it.- TopAce 14:50, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Shaak Ti?

The article says that Shaak Ti used Form II? Are there any sources that can confirm that? Sith Lord 18:14, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)

  • The Shaak Ti page doesn't say anything about her using Form II, and I haven't heard of any sources that say she used that Form. Maybe someone else knows of a source that says she used Form II. If there isn't any proof, then someone should remove the speculation that she used Makashi. 151.203.150.67 19:35, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
    • I already said it somewhere (probably here) that I find it very strange that a Makashi user would survive the Geonosis Arena Battle. Sometimes I don't know what to believe about which Jedi uses which form. What is stated and what could be the reality are two different things. Putting Shaak Ti to be a Makashi master is a poor choice. Surviving attacks from constant waves of Battle Droids is not something a Makashi user could do. Unless she was also the master of another form (Form I or III), I hesitate to believe that Shaak Ti used Makashi. If she did, she had to heavily rely on other Jedi defending her, which is quite improbably considering the chaos that was within the arena. - TopAce 19:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Shaaak Ti strikes me more as a Form IV or Form I user.
    • I totally agree with Shaak Ti being a Shii-Cho(Form 1) practicioner, Shaak Ti is seen with her lightsaber in two hands in all shots with her lightsaber. I have personally studied Makashi and only for one second in Episode II she holds her lightsaber in a Makashi position. -Derek Yoda's friend
  • Well I gave her stance in Episode II another look and it looks like a stance used in Shien (this is not official just a highly educated guess). Derek Yoda's friend 01:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Or Shi-Cho. However, many jedi in the battle scene didn't use the opening stances for their forms. The battle is not the best source, because many jedi just switched on their lightsabers and started to fight.--Dooku(Solar Sailer) 12:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
  • A Makashi practitioner can't survive waves or droids? That's some serious malarky. A master of Makashi could survive the waves of droids. You don't think Dooku could survive the Battle of Geonosis if he were on the Jedi's side? Besides, Shaak Ti was used major elements of Makashi in her own specialized Ataru. - Sasukereturns

[edit] Exar Kun?

I know that since the introduction of the lightsaber combat forms Exar Kun is often stated to have mastered the Makashi style, but from the comic books his fencing technique looks way more brutal and aggressive. Kun also seems to lack the self-control of a Dooku, for example. Does anyone know a particular source confirming Kun's Makashi mastery, or is that probably only some sort of fanon? In that case i would suggest to add a short note to the article. -- Edeas 14:07, 13 Jan 2006 (UTC)

  • Exar Kun's mastery of Makashi was mentioned in an issue of the Star Wars Insider. I think it was #62, but I can't be sure. Ace Venom 03:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Some where here on wookiepedia it actually staes that Exar Kun is a Makashi practitioner.

    • Exar Kun is NOT a Makashi user, stated in my discussion below. Please kindly inform me which Wookiee entry indicate Exar is a Makashi user, so that I can remove it. Darth Kevinmhk 04:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Exar Kun is a practitioner of Makashi, but he simply combines it with his use of the other styles. user:Darth Vatrir
    • Exar Kun is NOT a Makashi user. Provide canonical source to back up your claim please. Darth Kevinmhk 03:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sev'rance Tann

  • Can someone give more source for Sev'rance Tann's mastery? Otherwise I vote that we put Sev'rance Tann into Behind the scenes. The main article should only record confirmed masters. Darth Kevinmhk 03:10, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ALERT: No Exar Kun!

  • Alright, I wanna prove this for a long time: The so-called Exar Kun = Makashi Master originally appeared on this site: http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php which does not bear any real canonical value. Furthermore, a friend of mine sent me a scan of the original Insider #62 to prove that Exar was not mentioned in the Insider article (I can upload it if the discussion requires its presence). Therefore I vote for removing Exar from this article (and removing Makashi from Exar's article) unless another source can be found to counter my claim. Thanks for your kind attention. Darth Kevinmhk 12:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
    • If this is fanon, it's pretty widespread, but it's starting to smell like fanon to me too. Yrfeloran 02:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
      • Because not all fans own Insider... so most of them thought the site above contain the truth and the whole truth of Insider #62, in fact the site above is missing many information, and now contain possibile fanon. Ya, this is so widespread that almost everyone, including seasoned fans on OS believed that Exar Kun is a Makashi master mentioned in #62. Darth Kevinmhk 02:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
      • This site actually uploaded the whole Fightsaber article! http://www.dmeb2.org/darthmaulsection/swinsider62.html Please check that Exar Kun was not mentioned, unless another source can be provided, please remove Exar's name from Makashi user. Darth Kevinmhk 03:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nihilus

  • I did not play KOTOR2, can someone please verify whether Nihilus really used Makashi? Even Nihilus' article only said he used a style "similar" to Makashi. Thanks. Darth Kevinmhk 02:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
    • I guess someone looked at the "Feedback" tab of KotORII and somehow concluded that Nihilus's style was Makashi. - TopAce 12:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Let's hope he/she is right. Darth Kevinmhk 13:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
        • It looks like fanon speculation really. Just because one wields a lightsaber with one hand doesn't make one a form 2 user.
          • It isn't just using the saber with 1 hand. There are images in which Nihilus can be found standing in the Makashi ready stance. Certainly that doesn't qualify it as canon, but it is a telling hint. - Brandondash 20:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
          • No one say adding Nihilus into the article was based on he wielding 1 saber with 1 hand. Darth Kevinmhk 03:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
            • As I said, the one who added Nihilus probably took a look at the in-game statistics and concluded Nihilus using Makashi. - TopAce 19:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
              • From my long duel with him in KOTOR 2, It is clear that Nihilis uses Makashi from the smooth and elegant swordplay, as well as the efficiency used and resulting ability to limit the acrobatic movements to what is needed. There is no doubt in my mind that he has mastered Form II. Furthermore The Exile never necessarily used Makashi. But I'll gripe more in another post. --Revanreborn 18:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nihilus; Master of Makashi?

I can safefully say that this is unsubstantiated nonsense. Not only is his lightsabre style not elaborated upon, it also looks nothing like Makashi with all of it's backflips and general acrobatics. It's probably that Nihilus used some kind of unique style rather than anything else. I've edited the article to represent this.

  • You did not sign your name with ~~~~. Gethralkin 02:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Makashi isn't weak against blaster bolt deflection!

This is part of KotOR II's [i]gameplay[/i] forms which don't reflect canon. Makashi hasn't been shown to be sucky in blaster bolt deflection at all apart from in gameplay which is un-canonical.

  • however there are sources such as star wars insider etc which have showen it to be anon were not just relying on games...Jedi Dude 14:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Which articles in particular?

  • sign your posts? or join... anyway there was a lightsaber article in one insdier i belive. its not just from a game. Jedi Dude 16:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat. The article states that first Form I was developed, then Form II was created to answer blade-to-blade combat, then Form III was created to answer the threat of blasters. Darth Kevinmhk 16:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
  • In the Star Wars episode 2 novelization, it was stated that the whole reason Makashi was largely abandoned was because it was ineffective against blaster fire.
  • There was a segment in Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force on lightsaber forms, wherein it states that Makashi is largely innefective when attempting to block blaster bolts. I hope that helps.Qui-Gon Reborn 07:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Reborn, please refrain from bringing up old topics. This discussion is over two years old. // ~mikah~ 17:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Sorry. I didn't know, and I was just trying to help! And please, call me QGR. I don't care for "Reborn." Thanks! Qui-Gon Reborn 02:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Form II is believed to have died out with Count Dooku's death

Hopefully if someone in Luke's time was to ever find the fighting forms to Form II they would teach it to the Jedi. For them not to do that would be like saying that nobody should learn Karate since we have guns.


  • Well... even before Dooku was killed Form II was no longer taught to the Jedi. It seems to have died with both Count Dooku and Cin Drallig.
  • Do we think Yoda knew (of) it. He didnt teach Luke butas Grand Master he probably learned about all forms. DarTah Ravin'

In sources it says:

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Darth Bane: Path of Destruction Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat - Star Wars Insider 62 Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones The Visual Dictionary Labyrinth of Evil Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith novel Order 66: Destroy All Jedi

Why isn't there anything on Form II past Order: 66? Is there... or was there a Jedi from Luke's time that does or did know Form II???

  • wait a minute, it couldn't have died out completely. katarn was the battlemaster and a good portion of his own training came from fencing lessons at the imperial academy. so there's a little bit of form 2 in the njo--Black Jack Scarron 15:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
    • You can be the best lightsaber-wielder in the galaxy without having a clue about Makashi. - TopAce 19:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Yeah because the jedi would make no records of these forms. Umm...no. Not every book in which forms were used mention them by name. It is very unlikely that something as important as this would be allowed to simply die. Any stretch of the imagination would be an obvious no.


  • Much was lost after order 66. That's what it says it's believed to have died with Dooku. And until a Star Wars books says otherwise.... Form II is gone.
    • Yes but it is best not to mention it all together. Besides NJO don't seem to master only one form. I've observed that they seem to master all forms, but being as they are a more martial order than the previous it also makes since. Besides Luke's bladework surpasses any other character in SW, so if the forms were lost, which is unlikely, then it doesn't seem to hurt them.


  • You have nothing that says that it's still around and used.
    • You have nothing that says it isn't around so where does that leave us? In all probability it survived but it needs to be confirmed in a canon source. I dunno who started this rumor but I think it is now time to dismiss it. DarthMalus


  • Like it's Appearances and Sources says
  • Labyrinth of Evil
  • Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith novelization
  • Order 66: Destroy All Jedi

Until the name Makashi is used in Luke's time... it's gone.

  • Thats like saying because a character who appeared in a clone wars novel doesn't appear in a NJO novel so they must be dead, we don't know if they are or not. Until it is stated in canon one way or the other we can't know and I don't think we should assume. Grunny (Talk) 10:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Also considering that Corran Horn had a holorecord of Yoda teaching lightsaber combat to younglings also makes it unlikely that it died out. DarthMalus
      • However, Makashi was a particularly rare form and used by very, very few. Dooku and Drallig are assumed to have been the last people to use Makashi. Yoda taught Shii-Cho, first of all. And looking at the fast style, medium style, and strong style, there doesn't seem to be any comparable attributes to Makashi. So we can say that is assumed to have died out. Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber) 22:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
        • Yes, but it is possible forms beside the Fast, Medium and Strong styles were taught. Also, just an idea, the School of Hidden Wisdom was a dueling academy that survived the Jed Purge and some whose members joined the NJO, it is possible Makashi could have survived through this. Either way, as an encyclopedia, I just think we should deal with facts and avoid assumptions. Makashi may very well be dead, but it might not, so I think it should be left out of the article. Grunny (Talk) 04:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
          • The article does not state that it definitely died out- it is believed to have died out. The material will be placed into a BTS section though. Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber) 05:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
  • How is it believe? The lightsaber forms could not have died out. Yoda did not just teach Shii-Cho, Fast, Medium, and Strong styles are not forms. They have the archives of the Jedi and any moron who would have guidelines on how to build a lightsaber would certainly have information on how to use it. It is not "believed" by anyone but you. Never stated that the forms died out, and as it is, it is impossible for them to have died out, and it should not be mentioned at all in the BTS. It is speculation, unverified, and not even supported. BTS can list possibilities, but this isn't an issue in which even a possibility exists. Form II is not really relavent anymore as Form V compensates for Form II's weakness. Form II IS PROBABLY NO LONGER PRACTICED...but it did not die out. The NJO seem to adapt a more martial and flexible forms. They learned from the mistakes of the old. Enslavement to Form was a weakness that even Dooku acknowledged. Chances are, you won't see mention of a specific form. Not even in all the clone wars novels were forms specifically mentioned, but we assumed they were used. Forms were never eclusive to the OJO. DarthMalus 18:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
    • First of all, you don't know that. All of your statements are speculation. Second, the speculation you refer to is just as valid as the speculation on whether or not people like Quinlan Vos or Shaak Ti used Makashi- marginally supported, completely unverified. It is you who are making assumptions. Fast, medium, and strong styles are canonical. All your comments have been opinionated- and you don't have any proof of this. You even say "There is no mention of specific form" because they are no longer in use. As far as we know, forms are exclusive to the OJO. I will revert your changes now- please do not remove the information again. Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber) 19:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Remember their was still lightsaber combat holocrons that Sids did not get his hot little hands on containing knowledge. And Ikrit, we should find out what forms he knew because he was part of the New Jedi Order. -Derek Yoda's friend

  • First of all, no source states Ikrit's form. Second, we can't speculate on that knowledge or lack thereof. Finally, please sign your posts with 4 ~. Like this: Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber) 17:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I believe I read somewhere that he was a Niman practicioner but there was no source so it was deleted some time ago. Derek Yoda's friend 02:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I think we need to remove Shaak Ti and Tholme from this page as neither have been confirmed or even hinted at as being practioners of Form II. Now it is more likely that they survived since they have recaptured the Jedi Temple, the Temple of Ossus, Chu'unthor, and they have records of Yoda teaching lightsaber combat...well, it would be unlikely that they died out really. So far no evidence has been given either way. The evidence that we have, as obscure as they are, indicate that it would be highly unlikely that they died out. Another fanon theory that has been going around is the "one handed = form 2" needs to be put to a hault. It is bogus. Another fact that weakens your arguement is that James Luceno, in an interview, allegedly confirmed that Luke Skywalker was using Vaapad in TUF. Also if Yoda and Obi Wan were going to teach and leave instruction on how to build a lightsaber, is it a stretch to say that they have IQs slightly higher than poodoo, lnowing that anyone who was going to use a lightsaber, would need to know how to use it properly? Essentially that is the view you may or may not be aware of that you are currently advocating. Now let us reach a compromise. We both have wookiepedia in the best interest, so let us work together and improve the article. Darth Byss 04:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed... but um yeah agreed. Derek Yoda's friend 07:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Speaking of Form II and Dooku, I find the statement that Makashi was the cause of his wearing down vs. Anakin Skywalker to be an excercise in poor logic. Dooku was over 80 years old - that would be cause enough for him to be worn down by Anakin (who was 1/4 his age, after all). Also, given the precision of Form II's movements and the fact that it doesn't waste energy swinging the blade everywhere and jumping around, I believe that Dooku simply gave in to his (considerable) old age aboard the Invisible Hand.
    • Then you are incorrect. It has been made abundantly clear that Dooku just plain lost. Period. Anakin was stronger, younger, more powerful, and more skilled than Dooku was. Case closed. If you wanna debate it, fine...prepared to be publicly humiliated. Darth Byss 21:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Uh, that's simply not true. The RotS novel states with abnsolute clairity that Dooku let Anakin win. Din's Fire 997 22:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
        • Are you reading the same RoTS novel as I am? Because the one I have in front of me clearly says that Dooku's intention was to feign defeat during the fight, but then Anakin actually did defeat him. -- I need a name (Complain here) 22:46, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
          • Ah, my mistake. It's been a while since I read RotS, I must have been remembering the first part of the duel alone. Coulda sworn there was something about Dooku being bored by the fight at one point, in any case... Oh well. Din's Fire 997 23:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
                • I must settle this: There are Jedi Holocrons, and Makashi were put into them. Period.

[edit] Name

Mukashi (in Japanese) means a long time ago, past. This probably irrelevent but it could mean something.

  • Well, Makashi is considered an outdated, obselete style by most, due to its focus on blade-to-blade combat over blade-to-gun, which is the most practical. Darth Vatrir (pronounced Va-Trear)
  • Don't forget A long time ago in a galaxy, far, far away. - TopAce 19:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm not forgetting the A long time ago in a galaxy, far, far, away stuff, I'm just saying that the guys who wrote about and essentially created this style maybe gave it that name for some reason. Lord Darth Vatrir

[edit] Semi-protection

  • This article is now semi-protected, to halt repeated fanon, original research, and POV, by decree of Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber). Any complaints may be directed to Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber). And for everyone else, I'm keeping an eye on this page, so if you want to add anything "new", please indicate the source somewhere per the new rules. Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber) 23:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Atarumaster88 please check your mail I made a request concerning the Makashi article. And I've been wondering, what was the vandalism that took place or were you just questioning the canonciality of some of the information, possibly common moves and mauneuvers. Please leave a message at my talk. Derek Yoda's friend 02:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Okay, that may have been a bit much. The page is unprotected. And I don't think I threatened to ban anyone over this- if I did, I'd give a couple of warnings first. And I've replied to the user above. Also, the vandalism was largely adding material that doesn't show up in a book, game, or movie, etc. Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber) 02:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks so much Atarumaster88! P.S not that I was planning on adding anything. Derek Yoda's friend 03:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Common moves and maneuvers wookification

I have edited the common moves and maneuvers section in an attempt to wookify it. Does anything else need to be done done to that section or can I remove the tag? Grunny (Talk) 06:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

  • It still has present tense verbs, and some other minor things. Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber) 15:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Not much revelence but I remove "Common" from the Common moves and maneuvers article, man what was I thinking when I wrote "Common" I must of been having a bad day. Derek Yoda's friend 01:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Makashi Salute

The Makashi Salute is described as "an arrogant challenge." Other than Count Dooku's use of this maneuver during the Battle of Geonosis, is there any evidence that it reflects arrogance on the part of the practitioner? I feel like it'd be more neutral to refer to it as simply a challenge without the added adjective. Mathfreq 23:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

So Sorry Wookieepedia I was generalizeing. Derek Yoda's friend 02:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Makashi is based on the Spanish style of fencing known as "Destreza" in this art, the gesture you have seen Dooku perform in front of Yoda is not a sign of arrogance but one of respect. It is in fact a salute.

The Destreza salute of one swordsman to another before a duel.

--69.51.150.90 20:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who deleted the article about rumored practicioners

  • Why was it removed, not that I didn't disagree with everyone but still, I dont know? Derek Yoda's friend 07:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • And you're going to make the administrators puting it on protection again, please don't make them do that again, that was in my opinion the most depressing protection ever. Derek Yoda's friend 07:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Because it's pure conjecture made up by fans. .... 08:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
    • It was decided in our IRC channel that having a gallery for all the rumored practitioners was not a good idea. The list of rumored practitioners is still in the Behind the Scenes Protection. Second of all, this article has never been given a level 2 protection, so normal, registered users could still edit it even when it was protected. Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber) 19:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Your're right it was a dumb idea... It wasn't mine. Derek Yoda's friend 19:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ki-Adi-Mundi

  • Is there any proof that he was a practitioner of Form II or is this more pure speculation? Vryce 22:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Definitely Speculation, just because a character uses one hand it doesn't mean Makashi, his moves are not Makashi moves. Derek Yoda's friend 23:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
  • It was never explicitly stated that he was a Makashi practioner. His moves just seemed to resemble a Makashi practioner. That's why I added him to the possible list of practioners. I never said he was a practioner. Other jedi have been linked to various forms without sources, I didn't think there would be a problem--Jacenskylo 02:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
    • We prefer that for rumored practitioners, that the a person have at least some possible inference, or in lieu of that, that a larger group of people agree on it than just one. Say, if there was a large discussion on TFN about it, that might qualify. Atarumaster88 (Audience Chamber) 03:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That's quite reasonable. I'll keep that in mind for the future --Jacenskylo 19:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Basics?

[edit] Behind the Scenes

Since the behind the scenes section only lists possible users why dont we just rename it the "possible practitioners" section? —Unsigned comment by 68.13.101.194 (talk • contribs).

[edit] The Exile???

By the end of the game, yes, the exile has learned Makashi. But so has every force user who goes through any jedi training! The only way he should belong up here is if every player across the world had no choice but to use Form II constantly. But the players can choose to use any of the 7 forms. Please take the exile down. --Revanreborn 20:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

  • You do know that you just said that the Exile learned Makashi. That means you just shot your own argument all to splinters. All we care about is that the Exile knew the form and was capable of using competently. Whether or not she used it is A) Unknown and B) Not Important. Thank you for the entertaining post though. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 01:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
    • I would refrain from choosing the word "practitioner." Google's first web definition, which is from princeton, reads: S: (n) practitioner, practician (someone who practices a learned profession) http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=practitioner.--Revanreborn 02:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Seriously, you have too much time on your hands. It's staying until you can canonically prove to me that the Exile does not use Makashi. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 13:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
        • Ummmm... I was under the impression that offering proof was YOUR job as a page editor--you know, offering sufficient evidence to support YOUR claims. If this information were in a newspaper no one would publish it but a tabloid. If you cant prove that you USING makashi is absolute as part of the game, then it does not belong under practitioners. Plus, I CAN prove that you show inconsistency with many similar articles in both form and content which I believe is now also unacceptable under the wookipedia article standards. SO, if other (if you are one) admins disagree with me on the canon front, which I am willing to bet they will not, I have proof of inconsistency. Let me offer a solution that I believe would be agreeable to everyone because I am sick of fighting, Atarumaster. Put the exile in a separate category labeled possible practitioners of makashi. That way more than one complaint will be resolved and you can list similar characters to explain. I think that is quite reasonable. As for the way I spend my time, it is of no concern to you. --Revanreborn 17:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
          • First of all, I am an administrator, so let's get that settled. Second, no one is disputing whether or not the Exile knew Makashi. In any game of KotOR II that is played out to completion without some serious hacking, the Exile will learn Makashi. That means that- even if she doesn't use it (which we can't prove one way or another)- she has the skill and competency to use the form and ergo she is classified as a practitioner. Heck, we classify Obi-Wan Kenobi as an Ataru practitioner even though he switched to Soresu. Moreover, we would be deficient in our coverage of the topic if we neglected to place that detail on the topic. If you are going to claim something in the article is wrong, bring canonical proof- because everything I've read about saber forms (and I've read or played every source with them in it) in no way indicates that the Exile didn't know Makashi. Or Soresu. Or Shii-Cho. We place the Exile in Possible Practitioners for Ataru, Shien, and Juyo, because she might not learn those forms if she was a Consular. That is not the case with Shii-Cho, Makashi, and Soresu. KotOR II says she learned Makashi- that's all I need to know. Unless you have canonical proof of your argument, kindly drop the issue. And it's your job to prove to the community that you do in fact know what you are talking about. As for the other administrators, you can find a list of them at WP:A if you would like their opinions on the matter. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 17:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
            • I strongly disagree but you've made a fine case and I respect that your choice was well thought out. I'll hesitantly let this go. You understand, I am sure, that it is not possible to prove my point, though, just as it would be impossible to disprove the person who said it was canon that Bastilla was turned back to light on the star forge. That was basically my point, and I hope you can understand where I was coming from. Thank you for being straightforward in the end. --Revanreborn 18:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
              • Fair enough, and I do see where you are coming from, even though I disagree with you. Perhaps the upcoming Essential Guide to the Force will shed some light on the matter. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 03:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok I must admit I'm confused as to why we're debating whether or not someone that knows all of the forms should be listed as someone who specifically practices any for that they aren't specifically mentioned as having focused on? Just because one knows many types of fighting styles doesn't mean that they consider themselves to be a practitioner of all of them, it's just absurd. Honestly no one should be listed as a "known practitioner of X" unless we have good evidence that it is a preferred form that they focus on and use regularly. Come on, by y'all's logic Yoda should be listed on every one of the form pages as a practitioner, along with Dooku and many others. They may have known and taught many or all of the forms, but they are listed as practitioners of their respective favored forms: Ataru for Yoda, Makashi for Dooku. MyrddinDerwydd 17:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It's just like what atarumaster said, I have been playing the game for along time and you learn makashi regardless of your jedi class. Whether or not she used is is unknown. All up to the player.Nihilus Acolyte88 04:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

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