Talk:Form V: Shien / Djem So

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Article milestones Date Process Result 11 February 2007 Featured article candidate Success 4 April 2007 Featured article
Current status: Featured article

Contents 1 Discussion 2 Plo and Form V 3 Shien Vs. Djem So 4 Plo mastered both Shien / Djem So? 5 Plo and Agen - Once and for all 6 Aayla 7 If it's ok 8 Darth Bane a Djem So user 9 Name 10 Once again 11 Common Moves and Maneuvers Article 12 Planned Major Edit 13 Gallery 13.1 Comments 14 Application Quote 15 Revan: A Shien Practitioner? 16 Is Anakin a master of Form V, or just a user?

[edit] Discussion

• Where does Form V calling on the power of emotion come from? --Geekmasterflash 08:39, 25 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • Maybe the novelization of Episode III - TopAce 14:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
    • As far as I recall, there's nothing in the novel to support that. It only mentions Anakin generating too much kinetic power for Dooku's Makashi to meet him head on. Although Anakin gets emotional in both duels that he uses the style, that's just because of his whole emotional instability to begin with. --Fade 15:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
• Fightsaber. Derek Yoda's friend 20:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plo and Form V

Although Wikipedia and Wookieepedia both stated that Plo is a Form V master, but exactly what is the source for such claim? I have looked for a while and still cant find one. --Darth Kevinmhk 04:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

• I assume it's because Plo is one of the stereotypical 'strong, slow' characters in Jedi Power Battles, which could be equated with Vader-style Form V. Dunno if there's a specific source though - Kwenn 14:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Is this game canon at all? It was inaccurate in regards of sabre colours. I don't own Playstation, but judging from the cover and the name, this must be a game made for eight-year olds. Like Rebel Assault, which is also non-canon. - TopAce 14:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
    • It's not a kid's game, but neither does it gel particuarly well with canon - but then, to an extent, neither does any game. And the saber colours are accurate for that time; Mace did have a blue saber at that point, Plo did have an orange one - Kwenn 07:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Yet, when the game comes out, 7 forms were not developed yet, and no source indicates that the game was retcon to fit with the 7 forms. Due to npov, we should not judge a game character's style with personal impression. Darth Kevinmhk 12:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
        • the seven forms of lightsaber combat were developed and were in use years before tpm, and plo does use djem so, you can tell by his tpm lightsaber hilt design--71.87.102.26 19:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shien Vs. Djem So

Greetings.

I was wondering if there's a source directly branched from the movies (i.e. novelization, VD) that claims Shien to be as much a part of Form V as Djem So is? From what I've learned so far, the ROTS novelization negates Shien as Form V, but rather, only Djem So. It says that Shien is an entirely different form, altogether (which we know as Form IX). As a result, I've been under the impression that Shien is solely Form IX, and that it is a variation derived from Djem So, which may or may not be as effective against blaster fire as the Shien of Form V.

I realize that it was Knights of The Old Republic that first publicized the different lightsaber combat forms, and consequently, many hold this source to be the most accurate, and understandably so. However, due to the fact that the novelization mirrors the movie and bears the official license for its representation, its classification of the combat forms supercedes that of the video game, or at least this is how I see it. Therefore, if (hypothetically) the novel says that Djem So is the only name and style for the characteristics of Form V, then Shien is completely nullified. Where was Form IX first named Shien? Does the novel classify Form IX as Shien? If not, I think it's likely that confusion was the catalyst for this mess.

Next, I would like to know what source classifies Shien to be better suited for blaster defense and Djem So for swordsmanship. I thought this was made up to explain the co-existence of Shien and Djem So when I first heard it. - Imperious825

• I don't remember the novel referring to them by anything other than their names. As far as I recall, Form categories aren't mentioned. So the novel simply mentions Shien and Djem So as two forms, but doesn't specify a link (or otherwise) between the two. --Fade 15:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Ah, so it's settled! :) If the novel explicitly says that, 1, Djem So is Form V, and 2, Shien is a completely different form, then Shien is simply not another name for this form. As a result of this revelation, I petition for "Shien" to be removed from the Form V title page. All in favor? Thank you for the info. - Imperious825
    • Neither Shien nor Djem So was refer as Form V in Novels. Shien was refer as Form V in KOTOR2. The EP3 Novel state that Anakin master both Shien and Djem So, and since most sources indicate that Anakin only master Form V (Insider62, Cestus Deception), so the general believe is Shien and Djem So are both Form V. Darth Kevinmhk 04:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Form IX shien is different from form V shien.Shien is part of form V as well as Djem so, but shien deals with blasters and djem so with lightsabers.

• • • • • some people classify shien as form v along with djem so because of their similarity; others believe there should be nine forms and move some forms back one to make room for shien (vi) and juyo (ix). the difference between djem so and shien is shien is better suited for blaster fire while djem so is used for melee combat. in aotc anakin uses shien and in rots he uses djem so with a little bit of shien. if you watch how he handles his saber in the movies the difference in his forms is noticible

[edit] Plo mastered both Shien / Djem So?

Alright, as you can see in the above discussion, even Plo mastering Form V is still debatable, so how come we know Plo master BOTH Shien and Djem So? Any canonical source? Darth Kevinmhk 10:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plo and Agen - Once and for all

• Alright, I am quite sure no source can support Agen's mastery, the article itself said as much, so i vote that we move Agen into the BTS section of Form V. And, as discussed above, Plo's mastery is debateable. Either someone give a definite source for it, otherwise I vote we move him into BTS as well. Please kindly comment. Thanks. Darth Kevinmhk 12:05, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
  • i'm 99.99% sure agen uses form v. in the pictures of himself he uses a djem so stance, and in the pictures of him kneeling over dead tan yuster, tan's hilt is form v (padawans usually practice their master's form)
    • That's called original research, and isn't allowed on Wookieepedia; we require explicit canonical statements for confirmation. Furthermore, please sign your posts. Atarumaster88 ^{(Talk page)} 20:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Aayla

Jan Duursema has stated that Aayla uses Ataru. And since Jan created Aayla, and knows more about her then anyone, what she says about Aayla is absoulte fact/canon. Aayla uses Ataru, nothing else (unless you consider form "Zero" as an actual form). see: here

Besides, the Episode III visual dictonary only shows a single picture of Aayla holding lightsaber, and describes it as a "Djem So attack stance". That is very weak evidence compared to the facts as told by Jan. Also, just becuase Aayla was said to be in a "Djem So Stance" that can't be taken as evidence that she uses that Form. especially when you consider what Jan said.

• It is not weak evidence, nor is what an artist says truly fact. Just because someone associated with Star Wars says something, doesn't make it canon—if so, imagine the trouble we'd have ever time Rick McCallum opened his mouth! So actually, the Visual Dictionary is more canon than Jan's thoughts, although I think it's best to compromise and say Aayla could use both Forms—just as Obi-Wan can use both Ataru and Soresu - Kwenn 17:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• The visual dictonary dosen't state that Aayla uses Djem So, it simply shows a picture of her in a stance, with the caption "Djem So Attack Stance". I don't see the caption of a single image as evidence, since it doesn't specifically state that Aayla uses that form, it just says she was in a Djem So stance, not that she actually used that form. Jan Duursema helped to create Aayla, and said as a fact. not opinion, that Aayla uses Ataru. Jan was stating a fact, as the co-creater of Aayla, not just an opinion.
  • Comments made on message boards, regardless of who said them, are not necessarily authorized by LucasFilm. The Visual Dictionary is. And if it shows Aayla in a Djem So stance, that means she knows how to use Djem So, and is therefore a Djem So practitioner - Kwenn 17:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• I don't know much about Star Wars comics, but unless I am mistaken, all the comics say that Aayla uses Ataru, and none of them say a damn thing about Aayla using Djem So. So that, and Jan's statments should override a single caption from a book. Besides, just becuase Aayla is shown in a Djem So stance, doesn't mean that she actually knows Djem So. Just becuase I can immitate a few martial arts moves, doesn't mean I actually know martial arts. Just becuase Aayla is shown immitating a stance, doesn't mean she knows that form
  • The comics never mention her style. The VD is the only official source for her Form - Kwenn 18:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• NO in-universe canonical material has ever said Aayla use Ataru, EP3 Visual Dict is the only source so far which gives us ideas of Aayla's style. And, please kindly sign your post. Darth Kevinmhk 03:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• • Last Night, someone made a post an Jan Duursema's message board, telling her about this debate, and Jan has this to say:

Aayla is a practicioner of form IV--Ataru, a form which requires agility, speed and acrobatics. While she was not yet a master of this discipline, she had the potential to become one someday. I think if anyone wants to argue against this, they can look at the comics in which she fights. Aayla is not about overpowering strength, which form V would require. Her skill lies in her grace and in her connection to the Force.

To see the orginal post, see here

I don't see how anyone could possibly doubt the words of the person who created Aayla in the first place. As the creater of Aayla, Jan would be the person who would know which form Aayla used.

• Again, please kindly sign your post, would you? Thanks. Back to the topic, if you check Ataru's article and Aayla's article, they have already mentioned Aayla as a Form IV practitioner. Still my point stands: no in-universe canonical material (comic/novel/movie/etc), or canonical reference material(databank/NEC/NEG/VD/etc) has ever stated Aayla as a Form IV practitioner, and EP3 Visual Dict is the only canonical source which for the 1st time state something about her style. And lastly.. you better ask the Holocron Keeper - it is the data kept in the Lucas Liencsing Holocron that counts, and I have no doubt EP3 Visual Dict is in their list. Thank you. Darth Kevinmhk 15:59, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Another eg: GL said he dont care EU, his movies have nth to do with EU, he wont let EU to affect his movie-making, and he even said (not exact wordings) "I have my universe, and they (refering EU) have theirs" But the EU is still canonical, or say C-canon. Yet another eg: in an interview months ago (read from a blog on starwars.com), when being asked what happened to Leia & Han after Endor, GL replied "Leia becomes a Senator, Han & Leia probably marry and have kids, they live happily together, and no more adventures." So should Wookieepedia shut down all Post-Endor article due to these words from the Father of Star Wars? Darth Kevinmhk 16:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Your point about the character's creator being the definitive source would be correct...for anything other than Star Wars. Bear in mind all authors and artists are working in George Lucas's universe; they defer to LucasFilm and Lucas Licensing when it comes to issues of canon—they cannot just introduce elements arbiteraly without confirmation from the continuity guys. For instance, R.A. Salvatore didn't just decide one day to kill off Chewbacca: the decision was made by the higher-ups, then passed down to the author - Kwenn 16:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Exactly, NJO authors wanna kill Jacen, but GL interfered because he wanna get rid of "another Anakin". So our poor Ani was killed :( I would very much like to hear Holocrons clarify Aayla's issue too. Holocrons department is setup to prevent different authors claiming and building different issues in different works, which exists in the early days of EU. Darth Kevinmhk 16:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

• Whoever you are, please stop erasing Aayla's name. Her name was already in the article of Ataru too. Her own article mentioned both styles in her knowledge. This article say that Aayla as a "practitioner", not a Master. So unless you can prove that Aayla knows 0.00% about Form V, otherwise she is a Form V practitioner. Darth Kevinmhk 14:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
• Hmmm actually Aayla is a Form 4 user. She is not a Djem So master. She simply took the stance. This is not uncommon as it could mislead an opponent, like Obi Wan's Shii Cho stance and switch to ataru. Aayla probably has a rudimentary understanding of it. All Jedi are taught the basics of of each combat form, many focus on one to truly master one form. Until she is said to have been a form V practitioner we can only go by Jan's word.

• whats your problem with calling her a form 5 practioner? if she's in that stance, then she knows a few moves and that makes her a practioner. You and your girl Jan need to cool it. her chosen form is 4, but she can still be a form 5 practioner. get over it

[edit] If it's ok

I put in a picture of Plo Koon's hilt from 32 BBY, as an example for the typical lightsaber design of the Form V pracitioners. btw i'm new =D and sorry Darth Kevinmhk it was me erasing Aayla. it will not happen again.

• Welcome to Wookieepedia! Good editing. About Aayla: It's ok, we can always revert that. However about Plo: (1) Is this new picture canonical? Can you source it? (2) Plo Koon, actually, has no canonical source to prove that he is a Form V master... I wanna get rid of his name for ages, but still cant get much agreement... So I don't think this pic suits the article, what about posting a pic of Ani's hilt? Ani has much source proving his mastery of Form V. Darth Kevinmhk 15:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

• Alright, post Ani's hilt then. and thanks for the compliment =)
  • You are welcome! Darth Kevinmhk 04:12, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

• Anakin's lightsaber appearance is largely irrelevant to this or any other such article. - Plagueis1

• Agreed. - Plagueis4

• What confirms that Aayla was a Djem So pracitioner?
  • EP3 Visual Dictionary. Darth Kevinmhk 03:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
    • You mean the picture of Aayla in Djem So stance?
      • Yes. Unless Aayla knew 0% about Djem So, then she is not a Djem So pracitioner. The article merely states that Aayla knew Djem So, not saying that she is a great master of it. Darth Kevinmhk 15:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Ok, got it.
          • Cin Drallig a Form V practitioner?
            • Cin masters Forms I to VI according to Insider 87. Darth Kevinmhk 18:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• As the author of the lightsaber design portion of the article, I request a withdrawal of this passage, from both the beginning of the passage to blade facets, which I posted, as well as the additional information independently and clumsily posted. - Imperious825

[edit] Darth Bane a Djem So user

Confired by Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

• • Any proof that Khaat Qiyn was a Form V user?

[edit] Name

Shien (in Japanese) means support. This probably irrelevent but it could mean something.

• Well, Shien is pretty much an upgrade of Soresu, and it channels the defensive movements of Soresu into attacks, so giving it a name that means support could mean supporting your defense with attack. Darth Vatrir (pronounced Va-Trear)

[edit] Once again

• If I recall correctly, a mere pose by a character does not indicate a lightsaber for. This is the case of Coleman Trebor. He was in a Niman stance, but that does not mean he was a niman user. The same goes for Aayla. All the book said was this is an example of a Form V opening stance. Notice that this did not say Aayla Secura is a Fporm V user. The only source of her Form is from her creator who has said time and again that Aayla Secura is an Ataru user. Why must we need go into this all the time? There is no example of her ever using Form V. She is acrobatic in all of her appearances except AoTC and RoTS, in which we hardly see her. So if we are going to go by a photo of her opening stance and say she is a Form V user, then should we not do the same to Coleman? The only person who ever made referrence to Aayla's form was her creator, and she says it is Form IV. DarthMalus 18:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
  • That is why she is under "rumored" practitioners of Form V, and not practitioners. The source that images comes from says she is in a Djem So stance, so it is canonical that she has some knowledge of the form. Same with Coleman Trebor. He is listed under "rumored" practitioners in the gallery, in case you didn't see that. The images are both canon, and the information should stay in this article. Atarumaster88 ^{(Audience Chamber)} 19:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Common Moves and Maneuvers Article

I wrote a new article for Djem So, continue this thread if you have questions or complaints. Derek Yoda's friend 03:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Never mind someone didn't like it and deleted it so it now has no revelence, sorry if you didn't get to see it. Derek Yoda's friend 05:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I guess it didn't fit, but it was interesting. If anyone wants to see it, they could find it in the history, with a bit of looking. Jwebb13^HoloNet 06:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• The Form V opening stance resambles how Plo Koon held his lightsaber in the Geonosis arena. If you consider a promo shot of Aayla holding her saber in Djem So stance without any further references a canonical source, then this should be a source as well. Otherwise, this will be plain discrimination against Plo Koon.

• First of all, no it's doesn't. Secondly, it was the caption on the Aayla Secura picture that made her knowledge of Form V canon, not just the image. Plo Koon's use of Form V is speculation. Atarumaster88 ^{(Audience Chamber)} 15:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
• Fine —Unsigned comment by The Koon (talk • contribs).
• I can't believe whoever deleted the moves and maneuvers article, the didn't give it a chance, and the administrators probably didn't get to see it and wookieefy it, why... sob. Derek Yoda's friend 23:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Planned Major Edit

Since this article has near nothing about Shien I plan to change the name and move the Shien Practicioners to the Shien page. Administrators please give your opinion. Because I plan to do it this week. Derek Yoda's friend 04:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Should we consider doing the same thing for Form:VII (Juyo/Vaapad)? I always wondered why combine two forms if they're distinctly different, or why have two names if the forms are similar enough to combine? Jwebb13^HoloNet 04:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
• Yes I think we should, but we should wait until we get about two administrators supporting it or even have a vote. I find it nessacarry to separate Shien and Djem So but I don't have to much of an opinion on Juyo and Vaapad, Djem So is just too critical in the Star Wars galaxy to get wrong. Derek Yoda's friend 23:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
• I agree; the only Form to survive the fall of the Republic and the Empire should receive its due. Besides, there's something truly entertaining about taking the sharpest cutting device ever created and trying to beat someone to death with it.... Jwebb13^HoloNet 23:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
• The only reason I haven't done it yet is becaus it might become a featured article and if I accidently mess up, and I need some approval from an adminastrator... administrators please voice your opinion. Derek Yoda's friend 01:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Please give said administrators some time to think about it! I personally recommend we have a vote on this talk page over splitting it. Atarumaster88 ^{(Audience Chamber)} 07:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm okay with it, provided that each article can be expanded enough to justify the splitting. It's an important form to the story's history, and I can't speak in favor of anything that results in lessening the status it deserves. Jwebb13^HoloNet 08:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Formal vote added here:

Keep them together

1. Atarumaster88 ^{(Audience Chamber)} 16:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Imp 16:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
3. Grunny 05:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
4. I don't see a split improving the quality of the article, so no. Jwebb13^HoloNet 00:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Split

1. Derek Yoda's friend 01:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Comments

You win, you win. I've added ten times the amount of Shien data so the article is more balanced with the title. Derek Yoda's friend 02:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gallery

• Same with Form IV. The gallery is redundant and only serves to illustrate something already described in detail in the users section.

Remove gallery

1. Atarumaster88 ^{(Audience Chamber)} 21:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
2. 16:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Keep gallery

1. There is one on all the other lightsaber combat pages, so removing the one here seems strange from a readers point of view. Darth Vatrir
   • The others don't have users section, except Ataru, which has no gallery. Atarumaster88 ^{(Audience Chamber)} 00:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

• New idea, do the thing that was just done on the ataru page, go for the middle ground and have both. Darth Vatrir 21:11, April 26 2007

[edit] Application Quote

Under the catagorey of Application is the quote "You will doubtless encounter many situations with multiple assailants. To better protect yourself from blaster fire without compromising your offensive capabilities, use the Shien form." ―Kavar

But from the way i see it, this quote is fairly repetative seeing as how almost teh very same thing is said under the description section "You will find it easier to deflect blaster fire with this form—and it shall also guard you against critical strikes by your opponents." ―Zez-Kai Ell

Both of these are meant to be interchangeable, seeing as how only one is said in the Game, which indicates that one is sufficient without the other. So because of the slight repition i suggested that this quote replace one due to both its releavance and its rather good discription of Djem So "The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike." This is from the ROTS novelization, and i think it would serve as a sutiable replacement for one of the two above.

Dispite Atarumaster's preferance and simply reverting it to his preferance. So to avoid an editing war, i want to hear what others have to say about this. Thank you AzureAngel 19:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

• My mistake on the reversion- I meant to leave an edit summary explaining it but hit "rollback" instead of revert on accident. Anyway, as far as I know the quotes are somewhat interchangeable, but we don't use OOU perspective quotes in IU articles, which is why I reverted the edit. Atarumaster88 23:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revan: A Shien Practitioner?

While playing Knights of the Old Republic, I noticed that Revan's sword/lightsaber style involves aggressive moves that seem to be designed to drive the opponent back. One in particular is a powerful downwards slash with both hands, a trademark move of Form V. Not only that, but Revan also has a tendancy to deflect blaster bolts back at those that fire them later on in the game, which is also a possible indication of a Shien user. Wildcard 06:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• That's fan speculation, and we can't use that here. No fan analysis of any saber form is allowed on any article. Atarumaster88 ^{(Talk page)} 06:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Close, he's a Juyo practioner, thus the agression, also his opening stance in the first movie featuring him mirrors that of Mace Windu's opening stance in the RotS Game, which was designed with movestets from Nick Gaillard specifically for the purpose of illustrating the applications of each Form. --The truth hurts... 19:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
• If Revan gets placed as a Shien practitioner in this article without explicit canonical statements of proof (what's presented here is not them), then I'm banning the person who did it. I don't care what you "saw", "observed", or how much it's "mirrored". I apologize for my brusqueness, but there are consequences for adding fanon or original research to articles. Atarumaster88 ^{(Talk page)} 20:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is Anakin a master of Form V, or just a user?

Controversial, I know. I'm asking because I don't recall the ROTS noveslisation ever explicitly stating that Anakin was a "master" of Shien or Djem So. Dooku thinks of Anakin as being "a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen". This does not seem to be explicit proof that Anakin was a "master" of Djem So, and Dooku doesn't seem to think much of his Shien ability. I suppose one could argue that Dooku, an experienced Jedi, stating that Anakin was one of the best Djem So users he'd ever seen, implies that Anakin mastered the Form, but is that relying too much on original research or inferences? Even if we take Dooku's comments as proof of Anakin's mastery of Djem So, what evidence is there that he mastered Shien?

I didn't want to modify the article because maybe I missed it elsewhere in the book (if so, can somebody give me a page reference or something?), or it might be stated in other sources. Can somebody please clarify to me the canonical basis of Anakin's presumed mastery of Shien and Djem So? Free Man 14:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for the heads-up. I will research it and check it out. If nothing else, some more referencing needs to be examined; I think Fightsaber might shed some light on the situation. Atarumaster88 ^{(Talk page)} 03:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
• Cool. I just had a look at the text of Fightsaber (sadly, I couldn't find my copy of the original article, so it may not be completely accurate), and it said that Anakin "dedicates himself to Form V", but the article does not comment on his ability in it. Free Man 10:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)