Talk:Grand Master

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Contents 1 Odan-Urr and Nomi Sunrider 2 Vodo a Grand Master? 3 Supreme Master? 4 Move to "Jedi Grand Master" 5 Nomi Sunrider? 6 Obi-Wan...What? 7 Is it just me 8 Rewrite 8.1 Rewrite 9 Hoth and Farfalla 10 Canonical Grand Masters 11 List Nomi Sunrider Already! 12 Convocation 13 Issues 14 Mace 15 130 ABY-137 ABY 16 Sources? 17 Destroying the Sith

[edit] Odan-Urr and Nomi Sunrider

Didn't Odan-Urr and Nomi Sunrider hold this title? I mean, they were both presidents of the Jedi Assemblies before the Jedi Council was formed --Mr. Perfection 03:27, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)

• I believe that the Jedi Order didn't became so formalized until after the Great Sith War. Also, I believe that Nomi was just a knight at the time. Odan-Urr, however, may be the symbolic first Grand Master, though I wouldn't list him as one without a canonical source or some input of some other members. -- SFH 19:34, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC)

• I definately agree that the Jedi Order was nowhere as organized in anciet times as it is in the prequel trilogy. It seems more like the "Jedi Council" of the time was just any master who was on Ossus at the time something needed to be discussed. Also the knights seem to have had much more freedom in what they did. Remember when Ulic Qel-Droma left to infiltrate the Krath and the Masters did not approve but he went anyway? I don't see any evidence that a formal Jedi Council existed at the time of the Great Sith War much less a Grand Master. I think the Jedi followed Odan-Urr because he was the oldest Master. The guy was over a thousand years old, older than even Yoda was when he died. I wonder if Nomi was the one who made all the reforms we see in place by the time of the Knights of the Old Republic games. I would not be surprised at all if it was Nomi who wrote the Jedi Code and put it in place, established a formal Jedi Council, and outlawed Jedi marriage. Remember she was married to a Jedi Knight before Andur was killed and she did not have to hide her love for Ulic Qel-Droma. As far as her rank in the Order you are right that she was a knight during the Great Sith War but we don't know if she was made a master afterwards. She was a war hero and creditted with stopping Ulic Qel-Droma which led to the defeat of Exar Kun. The Order may very well have rewarded her by making her a Master.

[edit] Vodo a Grand Master?

• Source? QuentinGeorge 07:29, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC)
• Removed until sourced. -- SFH 18:10, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC)

It is possible Vodo-Siask Baas might have been Grand Master, since at the Jedi Assemblies, he seemed to be second to Odan-Urr, and after Odan-Urr's death, either Vodo or Thon took his place. Maybe Vodo took his place until he was killed, and then Thon took over the Jedi Order. Just a idea. --Mr. Perfection 19:14, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC)

• Remember that Thon liked his solitude. I would definately say that Thon was the strongest Jedi Master of the time but he seems alittle too solitary to take the position of Grand Master. Also remember Nomi Sunrider emerged as the leader of the Order after the Great Sith War. I would think it more likely that she took over the Grand Mastership. As far as Vodo goes I don't see any real reason to deny that he held the title. He did lead the Jedi in the defense of Coruscant when the Krath attacked. There also is no definate evidence to support the position that he was Grand Master. The Order was pretty chaotic after Odan-Urr died afterall. Maybe they didn't have time to pick a new Grand Master. We may never know for sure. Another interesting question is if Master Arca Jeth had survived would he have been a Grand Master?

[edit] Supreme Master?

Yoda is mentioned as a Supreme Master of the Jedi Order in RotS novelisation. Doesn't its canon-level beat the other ones?

• The Rots novel is the same level of canon as other EU. Consider Supreme Master just another word for Grand Master (which is more consistently used). QuentinGeorge 23:09, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)
  • OK, just checking... Btw, are you sure that the title is mentioned in Labyrith of Evil?
    • As far as i can check, the rank was not mentioned in LOE. If it is indeed mentioned, someone please quote it. Thx. Darth Kevinmhk 10:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
• But Mace Windu was the head of the Council. This is extremely clear in the movies, whose canonocity beat any book.
  • He speak the most doesnt mean he was the head. More than half of the Council members dont even speak in the movies. Personal interpretation is just PoV, Databank and other canonical reference sources has never stated Mace as head of Council, but mentioned Yoda as Grand Master of the Jedi Order. Darth Kevinmhk 04:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
• I think Luke's office of Grand Master is a bit different than Yoda or Mace's possition on the Jedi Council. While Yoda and Mace are the obvious leaders neither one of them holds complete power. Also they still discuss issues with the Council. I think Luke's plan for the office is completely new because he set himself completely above the Council and the other Masters. He declared himself the absolute commander of all Jedi activity and anyone who didn't like it he asked to leave. A risky move no doubt and we could discuss whether it was a good move for ages. But I would say one way or another it is a unique move completely different from the leadership positions held by any Jedi Master in the past. Supreme master or any other master.
• Yoda is also referred to the most in the movies as the wisest and more or less most powerfull in the force as well as most experianced in the force. It seems rather obvious that he is Grand Master of the Jedi Order. User:Wild Dog

[edit] Move to "Jedi Grand Master"

• I suggest moving "Grand Master" to "Jedi Grand Master". Comment? Darth Kevinmhk 12:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
  • That doesn't seem to be necessary and might create confusion. Until we come across another type of Grand Master apart from the Jedi one, I think it should stay.DesertFly 07:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I disagree. "Jedi Grand Master" is more specific, and it would confirm to the titles of the other Jedi rank articles. - Angel Blue ^(Holonet) 23:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nomi Sunrider?

Was Nomi Sunrider a Grand Master? A quote from Power of the Jedi, page 8, seems to support it: "Her mother (referring to Nomi), now head of the Jedi Order..." So, was she a Grand Master? T-3 22:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Good catch! That's confirmation enough. Added to the page. QuentinGeorge 08:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
• She could have been referring to how Nomi was essentially a hero to most of the galaxy and so regarded as most important. User:Wild Dog

[edit] Obi-Wan...What?

An anon added that Obi-Wan is considered a possible Grand Master where did that come from? Obi-Wan died before Yoda did and it is therefore impossible.Grunny ^(Talk) 04:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry i didn't understand there ws only 1 at a time(cry cry)

[edit] Is it just me

Is it just me or do all the positive Gm's die of natural causes that we know of(there not killed)?

They didn't own their title for nothing. They were too strong to be defeated like that, or they wouldn't have become grand masters.

• So does that mean all the possible ones that got killed aren't?

[edit] Rewrite

Is this necessary? This is about the title itself, not a collection of biographies about all the Grand Masters. Kuralyov 04:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that this article needs to be rewritten. The other articles on Jedi Hierarchy stick to the duties, history, and how one achieves such rank. This one provides very few tangible details and instead extrapolates what a Grand Master -might- and -should- do based on the examples set by the only two people to have technically held the title. We already know that they Jedi Order under Master Yoda and the New Jedi Order under Master Skywalker functioned in often different ways. I think it's premature to assume that what Skywalker did as Grand Master automatically means that all Grand Masters did the same. Much of this article the way it is says 'the Grand Master did this, because Luke did', and finding examples where Yoda did the same.

The article should instead focus on what we know of the actual rank of Grand Master itself, just as the other rank pages do. And given the controversy of Head of the Order versus Grand Master, perhaps a separate page should list the known Heads of the Order, with reference to the Grand Master page.Telinome 04:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

The article describes and provides examples of each of the Masters and their characteristics, those things which set them apart from regular Jedi Masters. Many of the things done by these individuals were not done or even possible by most of the Jedi Knights. Tommy 05:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)Tommy9281 12:40am, 01/02/08

[edit] Hoth and Farfalla

Wouldn't these two be considered Grand Masters?--Shryne 00:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Canonical Grand Masters

I'm all for canon and I don't want rampant speculation. But I'm surprised Nomi Sunrider has been removed from the article. While it's true she's never referred to as a "grand master" the item in which she is called the "head of the Jedi Order" (i.e., in modern terms Grand Master) seems to mean she was, if not a Grand Master, the equivalent of a Grand Master. If the "high master" from the Chu'unthor gets a mention it seems reasonable that she should as well, if nothing else as someone who held an equivalent position within the Order.

To me, it seems like one of those instances where something is mentioned long before it is identified (of which there are several examples in Wookieepedia - like the Yuuzhan Vong). So I'm not quite sure what the fuss is, particularly since the consensus seems to be that she either was a grand master or the equivalent of that title at that time. --Niirfa-sa 19:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

• It has, to my knowledge, never been confirmed that she was a Grand Master. I feel that any kind of speculation should not be in the article, and if it is in the article, then it belongs in the behind the scenes section. But that's just my opinion. And... just because there is speculation in other articles does not mean we should have it in every article.
  But, I do agree... if the "high master" from the Chu'unthor get's mentioned then she should be mentioned too. I just feel we should not have speculation in our articles out side the Bts. --Jedimca0^{(Do or Do Not, There is No Try)} 07:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Couldn't Odan Urr be considered a Grand Master? Katana Geldar 12:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Nope, while he was the most prominent Jedi of his time, he has never canonically been referred to as Grand Master. Unil then…--—Tommy9281 ^{(Peace is a lie)} 00:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List Nomi Sunrider Already!

Come on people, Sunrider's been confirmed as head of the Order in over several sources already so put her on the list already dammit! User:Master Shannara 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• The head of the Order is not the same as Grand Master. - Lord Hydronium 00:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Guess that means you wouldn't mind explaining the difference then? User:Master Shannara 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• They're simply different things. Or more accurately, there's no canonical proof that they're the same. We don't even know that all eras have a "Grand Master"; Luke's certainly didn't until 36 ABY, and he was definitely leading the Order before that. - Lord Hydronium 00:23, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Look man, Luke was technically was the Grand Master even before he took the title officially. Difference between Skywalker and Sunrider is that Skywalker got it by reforming the Order and Sunrider was elected and more to the point, I promise you that more than half of Wookieepedia's entire community will agree with me and the only reason that Sunrider isn't considered a Grand Master is that you and most of those who disagree are big in the community. User:Master Shannara 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• "Technicalities" do not equal canon. Also, just because several people state something, or agree on something, doesn't mean it's fact. Case in point: If I were to get the entire world to say "gravity doesn't exist" and everyone believe what they are saying, does that mean all of a sudden gravity will switch off and we'll all float into space? No. Likewise, people saying something is canon when it's not explicitly stated as such will not change canon. Also, There Is No Cabal. ^Jorrel_Fraajic 01:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Shannara, the main point here is that Nomi was never explicitly stated to be the "Grand Master", while Luke & Yoda were. Period. Until a canonical text describes her as such, Wookieepedia will not list her as such. And, please remember to sign your posts with four tildes, like this: ~~~~ —Tommy9281 ^{(Peace is a lie)} 01:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Whatever, don't like it but I'll let it go for now. User:Master Shannara 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• Per above, being the leader of the Jedi Order is not the same as being the Grand Master. Drewton ^{(Drewton's Holocron)} 02:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Convocation

What does the Convocation section have to do with being a Jedi Grand Master? BC 19:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• Learn to be patient. You won't always get an immediate response. As for your question, I read through the section twice and can't personally find a reason why it should stay. // ~mikah~ 21:04, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Hello Gentlemen. As I was the individual who added a substantial amount of info to this article (even before the admins whom I confer with regularly agreed on removing the Nomi Sunrider information pending a canonical establishment of her occupying the title), I am not adverse to some changes. However, I added that information on the premise that Grand Masters were responsible for gathering all Jedi together for meetings. I do agree that in the article's current state, that information no longer has any real validity, since only one of the two (Luke) presided over Jedi assemblies. We can change the page up, but not in a fashion that disrupts the flow of the article. How's that?—Tommy9281 ^{(Peace is a lie)} 21:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
    • It really makes no difference to me; the operative in my previous post being "personally," I was hoping there was a reason it was there, but just couldn't find one myself. After the clarification, I can see why it should deserve a spot in the article, though it might need those tweaks you suggested. // ~mikah~ 21:33, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Yeah, I'm not seeing the relevance either. It's basically saying, "Luke Skywalker presided over some convocations but we're not sure if that's connected to him being Grand Master" (obviously the section had more validity with Nomi in there but it doesn't anymore). I think it would be prudent for the section to be removed with any relevant info - mainly the convocation where he proclaimed himself Grand Master - merged into the history section. -- AdmirableAckbar ^(Talk) 00:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Issues

I have some issues with...well, the entirety of this article. It seems to be full of OR and details about Luke and Yoda that aren't directly relevant. The "Talents and abilities" section goes into unnecessary details about Luke and Yoda that are totally irrelevant. There's also blatant OR: "Both were apprenticed to the wisest Masters of their time." and present tense, and the majority of the section is sourced to ESB. The Convocation section's been mentioned above but the Sith section...needs to go. It contains OR: "To this end, each Grand Master saw paramount necessity in the eradication of the Sith menace, and of the taint of the dark side completely." and is basically a summary of their actions against the Sith; there's no connection been made between fighting the Sith and being a Grand Master. I would remove all the offending material - which is basically most of the article - if it weren't locked, but in the meantime I'll leave my issues here for others to comment on. -- AdmirableAckbar ^(Talk) 00:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• I'm down for mostly whatever, as long as it both conforms to Wookieepedia standards, and doesn't turn into a mess.—Tommy9281 ^{(Peace is a lie)} 00:34, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
• (Darn edit conflicts! Tommy :P) I'm not opposed to unlocking the article (since I'm the admin who locked it to stop an edit war-type confrontation), though allowing a day or two for others to comment on their thoughts might be prudent as well :) You are right in the fact that some of the stuff in the article could either be reworded or removed entirely, and since Tommy was the one who wrote the majority of the article (a long time ago, over a year, so a little slack-being-cut may be in order too ;-) ), he may have some ideas on clarifying what he had initially intended; either that, or he agrees that a rewrite is needed too! Also, since Bold Clone was involved in the edits a few days ago that caused me to lock the article, they might have some ideas on what might work too :) I'll check back on this talk page in a few days time if it's not agreed upon in the time I'm here to make changes. Cheers, Greyman^(Talk) 00:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Ahh yes, this was one of my early forages, and I have learned a great deal since then. I do support a rewrite of some sort, and since Bold Clone was the initiator of the most recent endeavor of that sort, I don't mind letting him handle it as he sees fit (again, as long as it conforms to Wook standards). I'll help out if necessary, as we are all part of this wonderful SW community.—Tommy9281 ^{(Peace is a lie)} 00:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
• Since both Ackbar and Tommy have said that they agree on some changes, I've lowered the protection on the article so non-sysop users can edit it :) Bold Clone: If you have any ideas that you'd like to see incoporated (or not), please feel free to bring them up on the talk page or via Tommy or Ackbar's talk pages :) Cheers, Greyman^(Talk) 00:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Convocation doesn't really seem relevant. Luke called all of them while he was still a master, and at the fourth one, he declared himself Grand Master. Yoda didn't call any. Is that section relevant at all? BC 16:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mace

• I don't doubt that the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia says Mace was the Grand Master before Yoda (I personally don't have it yet but I trust those that do =P), but is this a retcon, as in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, in the flash back to Dooku's time as an apprentice, 63 years before the Clone Wars, from Dooku's perspective Yoda is referred to as both Master of the Jedi Order and Grand Master of the Jedi Order? This doesn't make sense if he only took the title when Mace was called to arms during the Clone Wars. So is this a mistake in the encyclopedia or a retcon? Or perhaps Yoda gave the position to Mace and then retook it during the Clone Wars (just a theory =P)? Grunny 14:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

• I'm in the same position as you Grunny. I don't have the Complete Encyclopededia yet but it all depends on how it is worded. If it outright states that Mace was Grand Master then like Grunny says it maybe that Yoda gave up the position to Mace prior to the Clone Wars. However if it just says that Yoda became Grand Master when Mace was called to the Clone Wars it may be slightly different. Yoda may have been Grand Master when Dooku was young but later relinquished it and served as senior member alongside Mace Windu (identified as also a senior member) on the High Council. Then when the Clone Wars began he took up formally the title of Grand Master again. I understand that what i've said above is just my own speculation on the subject but I dont think the Encyclopedias information will be too problematic. Elephanto 15:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree. Just wondering if someone who has the encyclopedia could check the wording, because the article currently says that Yoda "only" took the title when Mace was called to arms suggesting that was the first time he was Grand Master, which disagrees with Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. Grunny 15:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
    • I suppose the use of "only" could be seen to suggest that it was the first time but to be honest it wasn't what I thought of when I read it. However I agree it depends on the wording in the Encyclopdia. Elephanto 15:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
      • I checked the Jedi Council, Grand Master, Mace Windu, and Yoda entries, and I could not find one mention of Mace ever being Grand Master. Grand Moff Tranner ^(Comlink) 15:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
        • I believe thats because this information is from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. Hopefully someone who has the book will be able to provide a bit more information on what is said on the matter. Elephanto 16:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
          • That's what I checked. I have The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. Grand Moff Tranner ^(Comlink) 16:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
            • Found it. Here's the entry for "Master of the Order": "The highest-ranking member of the Jedi Council during the last decades of the Old Republic. During the Battles of Naboo and Geonosis, Mace Windu held the position. When Master Windu joined the other Jedi in military positions during the Clone Wars, the title was given to Yoda, who remained on Coruscant to serve as Chancellor Palpatine's chief military adviser. See also Grand Master." It looks to me like these are two separate titles, with Grand Master being used only by Luke Skywalker. Grand Moff Tranner ^(Comlink) 16:08, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
              • Could be but does the Grand Master entry mention Yoda and not mention Mace? It sounds like they could be seperate titles that in a lot of circumstances would be held by the same person but in this case they weren't and at one point Yoda held the title of Grand Master and Mace held the title Master of the Order. It kinda fits with what I read in The New Essential Guide to Characters today that Yoda and Mace were the two Senior members on the High Council. Interesting. 16:21, Elephanto 28 December 2008 (UTC)
                • Like I said, the Grand Master mentions only Luke as holder of the title. I'd like to think that we're dealing with two separate titles, but the Grand Master entry indicates that title was reserved for the sole leader of the Order - no mention of a council. I'm asking Leland Chee about it on his Holocron continuity database forum on the StarWars.com message boards. Grand Moff Tranner ^(Comlink) 16:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
                  • Ok thanks a lot for looking all that up. Elephanto 16:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
• Yeah thanks Grand Moff Tranner :-). We know Yoda definitely held the title of Grand Master as it is in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. But we don't whether Mace was Grand Master or just "Master of the Order", though once again in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous Yoda is also referred to as "Master of the Jedi Order". Hopefully Leland Chee will clear things up :-). Grunny 16:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
  • On the subject of Grand Masters working alongside a council we see in The Swarm War Luke as Grand Master operate without a council for a chunk of the book and then at the end state he is going to set up a Jedi Council to help run the Order. This council we see a couple of times in LotF with Luke still listed as Grand Master. For whatever thats worth it does show at least in Luke's case a Grand Master operating with a council. Elephanto 16:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
    • The highest-ranking member of the Jedi Council during the last decades of the Old Republic. During the Battles of Naboo and Geonosis, Mace Windu held the position. When Master Windu joined the other Jedi in military positions during the Clone Wars, the title was given to Yoda, who remained on Coruscant to serve as Chancellor Palpatine's chief military adviser. Could this also not mean that the titles of Grand Master and Master of the Order are separate, one referring to the Head of the Jedi Order and the other the Head of the Jedi High Council and that prior to the Clone Wars Yoda Was Grand Master and Mace the Master of the Order, but that Mace handed over the control of the Council to Yoda so that Yoda now held both titles? granted this is just speculation, but it would make more sense then saying that Yoda just handed the title of Grand Master over to Windu for several years for no apparent reason. I would think that this meant that windu was never Grand Master, just the head of the Council. AzureAngel 05:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
      • Yeah that seems possible, but right now we're just guessing. In 82 BBY Yoda was referred to as both "Grand Master" and "Master of the Jedi Order" so if thats true then he would have handed Mace the title of Master of the Order for several years so its still confusing =P. Oh well hopefully we'll find out off Mr. Chee :-). Grunny 06:34, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
        • That would also make sense because int The Phantom Menace it was Mace not Yoda who said to Qui-Gon "No. He will not be trained." I'm getting the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia soon anyway so I'll have a look at the wording (I'm importing it from the US to save money, so it may take a few weeks) User:AHS0KA
          • On the same token does Nomi Sunrider's position as "head of the Jedi Order" correspond with the new title of "Master of the Order" that Mace held prior to 22 BBY? --Markrox91 06:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
            • Probably not. According to the above-mentioned quote directly from the CSWE, the MotOwas only the highest-ranking JC member, not necessarily its leader. Just thought I'd point that out. 70.225.40.118 01:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] 130 ABY-137 ABY

Was Kol Skywalker the Grand Master up to the Massacre at Ossus? He was "a leading Council member." Also, would T'ra Saa be the Grand Master of the Order-in-exile?

I don't know about T'ra Saa, but i think Kol would at least be a Master of the Order, since he lead the council. Also, if it's true about those Jedi being GMs, then shouldn't we take out the 'destroying the sith' section? 70.225.42.171 00:54, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

Why are the six Star Wars episodes listed as sources for the GM article? Bold Clone 14:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Destroying the Sith

"Much of this article the way it is says 'the Grand Master did this, because Luke did', and finding examples where Yoda did the same." That was said earlier about the GM article and it applied to the entire section. It basically said 'Yoda fought several Sith to a standstill. Luke fought more Sith than Yoda and defeated half of them, most of the fights happening when he wasn't a Grand Master.' Bold Clone 20:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)