Talk:Moldy Crow
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Who else thinks that the Moldy Crow is just flat out a cooler ship design than the Raven's Claw? --SM-716 08:30, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)
The name couldn't be much better. Except maybe Corroded Sparrow, or Infested Raptor. Then there's Rotting Condor, Putrified Starling, and... — Aiddat (Holonet) (Contribs Log) 
15:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] About what kind of vessel it is...
I just noticed that numerous Internet sources of RPG gamers list the Moldy Crow as an Vangaard Gyre e3-A Scout Ship, there is any oficial sources that explain correctly what kind of ship the Moldy Crow is? Where it is said that the Moldy Crow is a CEC HWK-290 ? Seeing the starfighter size of the ship makes being an scout ship a lot more reasonable that being a light freighter, that's for sure...—Unsigned comment by 213.96.90.233 (talk • contribs).
- I remember originally seeing this type of vessel designated as a "Maccrow freighter." However, a quick google search of that term only brings up roleplaying sites, etc. Was that class never canon, or was there a change somewhere down the line?
- I remember that term too. The designation HWK-290 came from the same WotC article, as far as I know, that says it's 29 meters long. Take it with a grain of salt. -- Aubri 18:30, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Dimensions and features
I have done extensive research on this ship by analyzing the visual data from the games, and during that analysis, this ship cannot be any larger than absolute maximum limit of 20 metres. This wiki has it listed as 30 metres! that's the side of a freighter!
this wiki also shows that it has 4 dual laser canns and 1 blaster turret!
There is just no visual evidence to support this. the books are a poor reference source as the author did not scrutinize the game image. he is a fan like the rest of us and took HUGE liberties with the ship, thereby corrupting it's actual role, size and capabilities.—Unsigned comment by The Other Lucas (talk • contribs).
- The books are what's published as canon, not staring at a screen. Video games, especially the older ones have a somewhat warped sense of scale and distorted reality. It could be it's only 20 meters in the game because that's as large as they could make it without crashing the game or making the graphics god-awful on the ship.—Unsigned comment by 216.60.144.250 (talk • contribs).
- That last sentence would be valid if the cutscenes in Jedi Knight were done on the in-game engine, but they're videos. Cortle Steeze 20:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Read "Flights of the Moldy Crow" at the bottom of the page in The Dark Forces Saga, Part 2. While I agree that the stats don't really gel with what's seen in the game, WOTC articles are canon, and they're the only source that actually gives hard numbers. -- SM-716
talk? 03:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'd like to refer you to the Canon article on this very wiki. RPG statistics are considered game mechanics and as such are taken as artistic license; they hold the same canon level as in-game video. In fact, in this case they must rate lower because these stats were created by a worker at WotC to reflect the vehicle seen in the game. If the stats fail to do so accurately, then the stats are in error, not the video. I took a screen shot of Jan sitting in the Moldy Crow from Jedi Knight during the video when Kyle tells her "I have to go after that disc!" after the first Nar Shaddaa level. She is sitting in the cockpit of the Crow and her head is 18 pixels long; the Crow itself is about 720 pixels. If we very generously assume her head is 25 cm (10 inches) long, that gives a total length of roughly 10 meters, give or take perhaps a meter. (If her head is smaller, the Crow shrinks proportionately.) The Crow is definitely no larger than a Y-Wing. -- Aubri 18:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- The games actually do support a weapon complement of 4x double lasers and a turret. Mounted forward of the engines on the ship's stubby "wings" are four slender rods that could very well be laser cannons, and underneath the hull there's another blaster slung--which could easily be a turret. The length is questionable, but the weaponry is supported by evidence available. —Unsigned comment by 165.234.135.144 (talk • contribs).
At least a belly mounted blaster cannon was present on the Moldy Crow. During one of the early cutscenes of Jedi Knight, Jan Ors is seen firing it at a group of TIE fighters. —Unsigned comment by 69.119.140.230 (talk • contribs).
- In the aforementioned video, Jan destroys a TIE Bomber using single shots, presumably from the large ventral blaster cannon. If the Crow had four double lasers, we should have seen volleys of eight blasts instead. At no point in any of the games do we see the Crow firing anything other than the blaster cannon. Add the fact that the pointy components on the wings are far smaller than the ventral blaster cannon, and we must conclude that they can't possibly be weapons. -- Aubri 18:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
According to an independent team of deckplaners and my own mathematical calculations, the size of the cockpit indicates that this ship cannot be any longer than seventeen meters, and there is no room on the ship for anything other than a cockpit( the books mention things like a crew compartment, a boarding ramp, and a refresher, which simply won't fit). Since the ship barely has any room for anything other than it's passengers, it is most likely a courier or heavy fighter, not a freighter. Another thing, close examination of the connections between the wing engines and the hull indicates the possibility that the wings can be gimballed, similar to how NASA rockets can gimbal their engine bells. I don't believe the rods poking out of the wing engines are laser cannons, because 99% of the time the engines are pointed away from the direction of travel in the cutscenes, on the in-game models, and in the illustrations in the books. —Unsigned comment by 72.209.166.128 (talk • contribs).
- The key word there being "independent". Your calculations, as accurate as they may be, are not part of an officially-licensed source. This however is official, so it's what the Wiki reflects. Hope that doesn't discourage you! -- SM-716 talk? 23:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Current Discussion (6/23/08)
I thought I'd start a new section in reply to Aubri above, rather than continue to add replies in the middle of a discussion from over a year ago. Those RPG stats, while certainly vulnerable to being overridden by newer sources, are still of a higher canon level than fan calculations. Sorry, but until a book or game or whatever is released which explicitly says "length: 10 meters" (which may happen someday), the WOTC article is the highest authority on the subject. In short: you may be right, but until LFL agrees with you, this is all we've got. As for the rods on the wings being the mysterious four dual-laser cannons: that's just talk page guesswork and is not going in the article. But those cannons are somewhere on the ship, in addition to the underside turret. -- SM-716 
talk? 20:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I think it's a little absurd to offer up blatantly wrong numbers and defend them as the only source. How is the video itself not a source? I mean, WotC doesn't have any more information on the subject than you or I do. If I were to publish a book tomorrow that claimed Jerek's command ship Vengeance is 100 km long, that would be no basis for entering it in this wiki as fact. I'm doing nothing more hand-wavey than Curtis Saxton did, and his numbers are frequently recorded here as correct when canon sources disagree.
I'm not saying we should state that it's exactly 10m long, but I'd be a lot more comfortable with erasing the information that isn't observed from the game; what would be wrong with giving it a length of "~10m", noting it has a blaster cannon, and otherwise using qualitative terms (Hyperdrive: equipped) rather than quantitative ones (Hyperdrive: x2)? -- Aubri 21:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- If you published a book tomorrow, it would not be officially licensed by LucasFilm, so it would be non-canon. Wizards of the Coast publish officially licensed material, and LFL's business partners are definitely privy to more information than you or I. If you were allowed to change the length to "about 10 meters", what's to stop anonymous user 72.209.166.128 from "correcting" it to his independently-calculated length of 17 meters, as seen above? Or "The Other Lucas" from changing it to his estimate of 20 meters? Are any of you taking foreshortening into account? Or anti-aliasing representing fractions of pixels instead of whole integers? The fact that even the three of you can't come to the same conclusion when working from the same video footage is exactly why original research isn't allowed in the main article.
I agree 29 meters seems too large for what's seen in the game. But the fact is, we have one official C-canon source that explicitly states a length (as well as weaponry), and zero sources that say otherwise. -- SM-716
talk? 05:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)