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This is the talk page for the article "Moldy Crow."

This space is used for discussion relating to changes to the article, not for a discussion about the topic in question. For general questions about the article's topic, please visit the Knowledge Bank. Please remember to stay civil and sign all of your comments with four tildes (~~~~). Click here to start a new topic.

Who else thinks that the Moldy Crow is just flat out a cooler ship design than the Raven's Claw? --SM-716 08:30, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)

The name couldn't be much better. Except maybe Corroded Sparrow, or Infested Raptor. Then there's Rotting Condor, Putrified Starling, and... — Aiddat (Holonet) (Contribs Log) NR Seal 15:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

About what kind of vessel it is... Edit

I just noticed that numerous Internet sources of RPG gamers list the Moldy Crow as an Vangaard Gyre e3-A Scout Ship, there is any oficial sources that explain correctly what kind of ship the Moldy Crow is? Where it is said that the Moldy Crow is a CEC HWK-290 ? Seeing the starfighter size of the ship makes being an scout ship a lot more reasonable that being a light freighter, that's for sure...Unsigned comment by 213.96.90.233 (talk • contribs).

  • I remember originally seeing this type of vessel designated as a "Maccrow freighter." However, a quick google search of that term only brings up roleplaying sites, etc. Was that class never canon, or was there a change somewhere down the line?
    • I remember that term too. The designation HWK-290 came from the same WotC article, as far as I know, that says it's 29 meters long. Take it with a grain of salt. -- Aubri 18:30, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Dimensions and features Edit

I have done extensive research on this ship by analyzing the visual data from the games, and during that analysis, this ship cannot be any larger than absolute maximum limit of 20 metres. This wiki has it listed as 30 metres! that's the side of a freighter!

this wiki also shows that it has 4 dual laser canns and 1 blaster turret!

There is just no visual evidence to support this. the books are a poor reference source as the author did not scrutinize the game image. he is a fan like the rest of us and took HUGE liberties with the ship, thereby corrupting it's actual role, size and capabilities.Unsigned comment by The Other Lucas (talk • contribs).

  • The books are what's published as canon, not staring at a screen. Video games, especially the older ones have a somewhat warped sense of scale and distorted reality. It could be it's only 20 meters in the game because that's as large as they could make it without crashing the game or making the graphics god-awful on the ship.Unsigned comment by 216.60.144.250 (talk • contribs).
    • That last sentence would be valid if the cutscenes in Jedi Knight were done on the in-game engine, but they're videos. Cortle Steeze 20:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Read "Flights of the Moldy Crow" at the bottom of the page in The Dark Forces Saga, Part 2. While I agree that the stats don't really gel with what's seen in the game, WOTC articles are canon, and they're the only source that actually gives hard numbers. -- SM-716 talk? 03:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I'd like to refer you to the Canon article on this very wiki. RPG statistics are considered game mechanics and as such are taken as artistic license; they hold the same canon level as in-game video. In fact, in this case they must rate lower because these stats were created by a worker at WotC to reflect the vehicle seen in the game. If the stats fail to do so accurately, then the stats are in error, not the video. I took a screen shot of Jan sitting in the Moldy Crow from Jedi Knight during the video when Kyle tells her "I have to go after that disc!" after the first Nar Shaddaa level. She is sitting in the cockpit of the Crow and her head is 18 pixels long; the Crow itself is about 720 pixels. If we very generously assume her head is 25 cm (10 inches) long, that gives a total length of roughly 10 meters, give or take perhaps a meter. (If her head is smaller, the Crow shrinks proportionately.) The Crow is definitely no larger than a Y-Wing. -- Aubri 18:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
      • See "Current Discussion" below. -- SM-716 talk? 20:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The games actually do support a weapon complement of 4x double lasers and a turret. Mounted forward of the engines on the ship's stubby "wings" are four slender rods that could very well be laser cannons, and underneath the hull there's another blaster slung--which could easily be a turret. The length is questionable, but the weaponry is supported by evidence available. Unsigned comment by 165.234.135.144 (talk • contribs).

At least a belly mounted blaster cannon was present on the Moldy Crow. During one of the early cutscenes of Jedi Knight, Jan Ors is seen firing it at a group of TIE fighters. Unsigned comment by 69.119.140.230 (talk • contribs).

    • In the aforementioned video, Jan destroys a TIE Bomber using single shots, presumably from the large ventral blaster cannon. If the Crow had four double lasers, we should have seen volleys of eight blasts instead. At no point in any of the games do we see the Crow firing anything other than the blaster cannon. Add the fact that the pointy components on the wings are far smaller than the ventral blaster cannon, and we must conclude that they can't possibly be weapons. -- Aubri 18:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

According to an independent team of deckplaners and my own mathematical calculations, the size of the cockpit indicates that this ship cannot be any longer than seventeen meters, and there is no room on the ship for anything other than a cockpit( the books mention things like a crew compartment, a boarding ramp, and a refresher, which simply won't fit). Since the ship barely has any room for anything other than it's passengers, it is most likely a courier or heavy fighter, not a freighter. Another thing, close examination of the connections between the wing engines and the hull indicates the possibility that the wings can be gimballed, similar to how NASA rockets can gimbal their engine bells. I don't believe the rods poking out of the wing engines are laser cannons, because 99% of the time the engines are pointed away from the direction of travel in the cutscenes, on the in-game models, and in the illustrations in the books. Unsigned comment by 72.209.166.128 (talk • contribs).

  • The key word there being "independent". Your calculations, as accurate as they may be, are not part of an officially-licensed source. This however is official, so it's what the Wiki reflects. Hope that doesn't discourage you! -- SM-716 talk? 23:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Current Discussion (6/23/08) Edit

I thought I'd start a new section in reply to Aubri above, rather than continue to add replies in the middle of a discussion from over a year ago. Those RPG stats, while certainly vulnerable to being overridden by newer sources, are still of a higher canon level than fan calculations. Sorry, but until a book or game or whatever is released which explicitly says "length: 10 meters" (which may happen someday), the WOTC article is the highest authority on the subject. In short: you may be right, but until LFL agrees with you, this is all we've got. As for the rods on the wings being the mysterious four dual-laser cannons: that's just talk page guesswork and is not going in the article. But those cannons are somewhere on the ship, in addition to the underside turret. -- SM-716 talk? 20:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a little absurd to offer up blatantly wrong numbers and defend them as the only source. How is the video itself not a source? I mean, WotC doesn't have any more information on the subject than you or I do. If I were to publish a book tomorrow that claimed Jerek's command ship Vengeance is 100 km long, that would be no basis for entering it in this wiki as fact. I'm doing nothing more hand-wavey than Curtis Saxton did, and his numbers are frequently recorded here as correct when canon sources disagree.

I'm not saying we should state that it's exactly 10m long, but I'd be a lot more comfortable with erasing the information that isn't observed from the game; what would be wrong with giving it a length of "~10m", noting it has a blaster cannon, and otherwise using qualitative terms (Hyperdrive: equipped) rather than quantitative ones (Hyperdrive: x2)? -- Aubri 21:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  • If you published a book tomorrow, it would not be officially licensed by LucasFilm, so it would be non-canon. Wizards of the Coast publish officially licensed material, and LFL's business partners are definitely privy to more information than you or I. If you were allowed to change the length to "about 10 meters", what's to stop anonymous user 72.209.166.128 from "correcting" it to his independently-calculated length of 17 meters, as seen above? Or "The Other Lucas" from changing it to his estimate of 20 meters? Are any of you taking foreshortening into account? Or anti-aliasing representing fractions of pixels instead of whole integers? The fact that even the three of you can't come to the same conclusion when working from the same video footage is exactly why original research isn't allowed in the main article.

    I agree 29 meters seems too large for what's seen in the game. But the fact is, we have one official C-canon source that explicitly states a length (as well as weaponry), and zero sources that say otherwise. -- SM-716 talk? 05:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

    • Are you reading yourself?! The game says otherwise! Are all Wookieepedia regulators like this? 12seraph 23:20, November 17, 2011 (UTC)
    • If the 29m figure is so blatantly wrong, it should be omitted. 12seraph 23:53, November 16, 2011 (UTC)
      • This conversation is from 2008. Do not try to ressurect dead threads. Read the timestamp (and section header) before posting. Also, not how I've reformatted your post. Don't post your sig on a new line. Cheers. NaruHina Talk Anakinsolo 23:49, November 17, 2011 (UTC)
        • You mean to say the error hasn't been corrected, even after three years? 12seraph 05:10, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
          • Again, please don't resurrect dead topics with responses that the original poster is not even likely around anymore to see and respond to. As to any so-called "error," if you have a cited reference that proves contrary to the information in the article then post it to fix whatever error there may be! If there is no source available to prove contrary to the info in the article, however, then any changes made would be considered original research. GethralkinHyperwave 08:11, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
            • Let me get this straight. Measuring something on a screen is "original research", but reading a fabricated number out of a book isn't. So if some official canon source said that the snow on Hoth was pink it would be cited even though I perceive from the movies that the snow on Hoth was white? 12seraph 23:57, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

For the love of god... Edit

I honestly don't care what WOTC says. That ship only has space for AT MOST, 4 people and that's REALLY cramping it. It's size can be observed easily as 10 meters, I don't know meters, because I never learned those measurements... But, regardless... In each cutscene, the ship is easily seen as relatively small. Seeing as how it is the FIRST appearance of The Moldy Crow, even though Dark Forces is really the first, which has the same size of JK1's Moldy Crow, mind you, then I accept that as the absolute most canonical measurement of size possible.

I ask you. If The Moldy Crow were ANY bigger, would it have crashed the game? Absolutely NOT. Dark Forces: Jedi Knight II, had levels far larger than any other Jedi Knight game we've seen yet. Commonly. The sense of scale was enormous, and even then, it didn't affect the way the game ran anyways. It ran very smoothly, with tons of things going on at once. Why would that ship being any bigger make the game crash, or some other stupid excuse?

Why is Wizards of The Coast constantly regarded as canon? That's utterly ridiculous. Especially regarding this ship. I just don't get how in the world WOTC saw a picture, and went...

"HAY. This thing is really big! Look at the screenshots... Wait, no... It's tiny... You know what? It's just a game, I mean... That can't be canon, and whatever I say HAS to be canon... So... Hm... Let's make it corellian, and make it as big as the falcon, so it's just another run of the mill freighter... Yeah. That's alot better. Now I took all the originality out of it! Yay! I win! Now let's go make sure The Raven's claw is completely accurate."

BS.

How in the world was it's first appearance so heavily disregarded? Why can this ship not be it's true size? For the love of god, SOMEBODY correct the scale issues of this ship! I also can't begin to believe that the things on the tips are blaster cannons, because they aren't gonna' shoot CRAP. The wings are tilted, so how could it possibly hit anything at all? It's also not rendered IN any Dark Forces game, but that could easily be in game limitations, which I'm actually willing to accept. But I just can not accept that it's a corellian freighter. I have far more speculation, research, and final conclusions that indicate the true origin of this vessel. WOTC can't be right about this thing. It was also never stated as a corellian vessel, and I have no IDEA who thought up, "HWK 290"... Seriously.

I simply can't agree with ANYTHING Wizards of The Coast thought up for this thing. I just can't. It doesn't make any sense! All they didn't change was the shape of the ship... Which, I'm actually amazed that they managed NOT to, even though it MUST be 29 meters long, I mean... Look how small it is!

Look... That thing is far closer to 29 feet long than it is 29 meters long. It is not a big ship. This is gonna' sound pathetic, but I've been looking into this thing for twelve freaking years. 12 years. I think that I should know just about all there is to know about it by now.

Wizards of The Coast's complete disregard of the ship's true appearance has ruined multiple models of the ship, such as Stefan Hacker's Moldy Crow. 95% accurate. The other 5%? The scale. They look like dwarves in there.

The other work in progress also has really small crew members, all because they trusted Wookieepedia to give them correct information. They never played Dark Forces II, or any other game with that ship. They trusted a site that submits to whatever WOTC says. If this is supposed to be such an accurate site, then why don't they research every aspect of it themselves? Why the heck not? Why can't you guys get the scale of this thing right? Why can't you just say NO to WOTC? Why!? Why are they so highly regarded in this respect?

Should they ever correct it, they will have my gratitude, but you guys seriously need to consider re-doing this page. There's simply too much here that needs to be fixed. TOO much.

In-game shots would be nice too. More cutscene stuff, showing the true scale of the ship would be good too. If lucasarts says the size of it first, bluescreens it in, and MAKES the damned thing for the game, and the CGI model, then they should have the ultimate say of how big it is, which clearly, it is NOT as big as WOTC says.

I'm with LA on this. Not WOTC. Unsigned comment by 67.142.130.35 (talk • contribs).

  • Canon is canon. If Lucasfilm decides that something is canon then it is, even if that means there are contradictions. Wookieepedia is a canon encyclopedia, so it documents what Lucasfilm says canon is. If tomorrow they create a canon war where the two opposing sides are made of ballerinas and drag queens, then you'll be finding the Great Ballerina-Drag Queen War article. - Brandon Rhea Alliance Starbird (talk) 07:04, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Hm. Yeah, I don't really agree with that... But...


Okay. Say that The HWK-290 is 29.9 meters long, armed with four dual laser cannons and a ventral mounted dual laser cannon turret. Say it DOES travel at 80 MGLTs.

What if The Moldy Crow isn't an HWK-290? You ask me, this thing doesn't look even remotely corellian. If you had handed me a picture of a YT-1300 and an X-wing, then popped up a picture of this vessel and asked me which one it looked more like?

I'd say it's far more likely to be an Incom than anything else. It has very similar qualities, of which I would be glad to point out. Only if one would ask, that is.

This vessel also has a few structural similarities to The Shrike, which is an Alpha-52 starfighter produced by Incom. When the wings are in flight mode, there are two landing fins which point in the same outward fashion as The Moldy Crow's dorsal mounted engines.

Not only that, but it is also piloted in a similar fashion. The Shrike's cockpit has a large computer screen in the center, or something of the like. From what anybody can gather, Jan Ors pilots The Moldy Crow in a similar way, and it is also noteworthy that pilots of the X-wing and Y-wing prefer to use their targeting computers, meaning that Incom has reliable targeting computers that do not fault often, which would explain their prominence in later vessels such as THe Moldy Crow and The Shrike. (wait, Y-wings are Koensayr. CRAP.)

Maybe it is even worth noting that the interior space is vastly similar. But this could be coincidence.

It is also noteworthy that the cockpits of botht the X-wing and The Moldy Crow are similar. Edged, pointy, and so on. Even the main fuselage is similar. Broad at the rear, thin at the front. Well, roughly stating, anyways.

Also, The Moldy Crow's "Wings" take on the shape of a letter. A K, really. So, originally, for all we know, it was a K wing before the K wing was in EU. Who knows. But the X-wing's "wings" take the shape of an X. Which makes these two even more similar.

In the cutscenes of Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, it is clearly seen that this vessel is no larger than 10 meters long. But that same feature is also seen in game as well. If it was downsized to make the game run better, and more efficient, then I ask you this.

Why were the levels so vast and gigantic at their time? Why was it so expansive? Why was everything so BIG? With absolutely no framerate decrease at all, and always maintaining a smooth gameplay experience. Even now, the sheer size impresses me, and alot of it is simply scenery!


So, maybe The Moldy Crow ISN'T an HWK-290. Who knows. At least, in my book. It's not.

A New Source Edit

In May 2013, the HWK-290 (including the Moldy Crow) was announced as an upcoming expansion model for the X-Wing tabletop miniatures game produced by Fantasy Flight Games (FFG).

Up to this point FFG has done a painstaking job of ensuring that all the models for their game are consistently scaled. Compared to other released models, the HWK-290 model appears to be just about 16 meters. There was allegedly some discussion of the size of the model with the game developers at the event where the expansion was revealed. The developer who fielded the question claimed that FFG had coordinated with Lucas (nfi) and that 16.5m was the canonical length. If the release model is the same size as the prototype, it will be with explicit licensor approval.

As far as the other characteristics, tabletop game stats are not necessarily any more (or less) authoritative than RPG stats. For consideration the following are some objective in-game comparisons. The HWK-290:

- Has a turret mount (which is functionally the same as a Y-Wing's turret)

- Without the turret, has firepower "1" (compare to "2" for TIE Fighter or A-Wing, "3" for TIE Interceptor or X-Wing)

- Has Shield value "1" (compare A-Wing & X-Wing "2", Y-Wing "3")

- Has Crew value "1" (compare all fighters "0", Firespray-31 "1", YT-1300 "2")

24.253.150.123 01:47, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

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